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Janet
05-08-11, 02:35
I really would like to know what ever became of my maternal grandfather's only sibling, his sister Maggie.

My greatgrandparents James and Emma Berry (nee Pickles) had two children in Sutton-in-Craven, near Keighley, in the West Riding:
1. my grandfather Walter, b 16 January 1875
http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10859
2. his sister Maggie (Maggy/Margret?) b 30 December 1878

Maggie was at the wedding in Leeds with her boyfriend Charlie on 26 April 1900 when her brother Walter Berry married Lily Spence, and there is a photo including the two of them.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cx9OUnn9e2M/TjtSPRI_b4I/AAAAAAAAAdg/SiyrUW1Za44/s1600/Berry%2Bfamily%2B-%2Bwedding%2B600%2Bdpi.jpg
They are the two at the far left in the wedding photo, him standing and her sitting in front of him. Emma, the mother of Walter and Maggie, is second from right in the back row.

I've just received the certificates for Maggie's birth, Emma's death, and Charlie and Maggie's marriage:

Maggie Berry, b 30 December 1878, father James Berry, Coal Dealer, mother Emma Berry formerly Pickles

Emma Berry, d 13 July 1919, 15 Newton Street, Nelson, 64 years, cancer of liver, wife of James Berry a Coal Dealer, Maggie Berry, Daughter, in attendance

Charles Johnson and Maggie Berry, 7 August 1919, at the RO, Burnley, by licence
Charles 33 years [a mistake or a lie :(], Bachelor, Oil & Tallow Refiner (Master), 15 Newton Street, Nelson, father John Johnson, Farmer
Maggie 39 years, Spinster, Cotton Winder, 15 Newton Street, Nelson, father James Berry, Coal Dealer
Witnesses John Watson and Margaret Shann

I am very frustrated because I was waiting to see Charlie's age on the marriage cert. It says 33 and I don't believe it for one minute. Look at the age of him in the 1900 wedding photo! If he were 33 in 1919 he would have had to be 14 years old in 1900. I can't think why he would be lying about his age, especially making himself 6 years younger than his wife, so I can only think this is a mistake. How frustrating. So I still haven't much clue where he came from, except that he gives his father as John Johnson, a farmer, and farmers don't move far; so I expect the family is right there somewhere nearby, assuming he and Maggie have settled in Charlie's neighborhood. Might Charlie's occupation of Oil & Tallow Refiner even fit in with his father's farm?

After this I lose sight of them. I see there is an entry for 15 Newton Street, Nelson, on the 1911 census. Can anyone with FMP perhaps see if they are there, and if so who else is with them? That could possibly give me some slim lead. Many thanks in advance.

My grandmother's 1934 address book has them as:
Charlie & Maggie Johnson
133 Bewsey Rd.
Warrington, Lanc.
which is then crossed out and replaced with:

Johnson, Chas. & Maggie
Dyson's Fold Farm
311 Wigan Rd., Leigh, Lanc.
Eng.

I don't know where these addresses were obtained or if they were ever valid. After the death of their father James Berry, there are masses of correspondence between my grandfather and the bank responsible for his late father's probate where Walter inquires as to Maggie's whereabouts, saying he has not been able to find her and that if she cannot be found then the entire estate should revert to himself. (The bank politely declined to abide by his logic.)

My grandfather apparently never did find Maggie and Charlie as after his death in the 1950s there is another letter, by my father this time, acting as attorney for my mother and her sister that attempts to draw Maggie out of hiding but seems never to have had any response. He may have been talking to a dead person by that time.

Family lore expresses the fear that Maggie and Charlie were killed in the WWII bombing, and indeed I found some possible deaths at the time of the bombing of Manchester in June 1945:
Johnson Maggie Manchester 8d 186
Johnson Charles H 74 Manchester 8d 48

But there is also a death of a Maggie Johnson in March Qtr 1958 in Leigh, same as my Maggie's last known address:
JOHNSON Maggie Leigh 10d 23
Could have been another Maggie Johnson. A relative of Charlie's? I expect this is probably not my Maggie at all, but who knows?

Skipping back to 1901, I thought perhaps I'd found Maggie in service in 1901 in Keighley as Margret Berry age 22 b1879 Skipton, Yorkshire, relationship to head of household: Servant (familysearch).

But caution: there is another Maggie Berry, Walter's first cousin, living in the same neighborhood.
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=23724955
She was not born the same year as my Maggie, though. Cousin Maggie should have been 26 in 1901, not 22. So I think this Keighley one could possibly be my Maggie. Would she possibly move from service to cotton winder? And if this is Maggie, then I wonder if we might see Charlie nearby, even in the same house perhaps? But I didn't know how to find him. Maybe someone else can.

I don't know if I'll ever find the answers, but any suggestions gratefully accepted!

Janet
05-08-11, 03:14
I forgot to mention that Walter and Maggie's father ended up on the Isle of Man where he died in 1930. His estate was to be divided between his two children (with a complication: the housekeeper he was living with was to have lifetime use of the house that she was living in with him at his death). A postcard from that housekeeper to my grandparents in 1931 speaks of "M & C" going away on Monday, presumably Maggie and Charlie, so that puts them alive and kicking in 1931.

ElizabethHerts
05-08-11, 06:59
I have looked at 15 Nelson Street, Janet.

The people living there are as follows:

MERRY, Emma Head Married 22 years F 56 1855 Cowling Yorks
MERRY, Maggie Daughter Single F 32 1879 Confectionery Picker Sutton Yorks
FREITT, Arthur Boarder Married M 48 1863 House Painter Blackburn Lancs

How mysterious -

Merry - Berry
Emma
Maggie

It looks like Merry, but the name for Emma could almost be Berry!

ElizabethHerts
05-08-11, 07:17
It's very hard to find the family together, Janet.

In 1901 Emma Berry is visiting Pickles family in Cowling.
In 1891 Emma and Maggie (aged 12) are together in Sutton.

ElizabethHerts
05-08-11, 07:29
Janet, do you know if Charlie and Maggie had any children?

In 1923 there is a child born in the Warrington district to a Johnson and a woman with maiden name Berry.

MargaretMarch
05-08-11, 17:17
You could ask the local library to check the electoral roll for the address

Dyson's Fold Farm
311 Wigan Rd., Leigh, Lanc.
Eng.

to see if anyone else was living there at the same time ie Charles' father or any siblings.
Margaret

Janet
05-08-11, 17:38
Wow, thanks Elizabeth! So that's a mistranscription. That's really good to know. That's the 1911 on FMP that you're looking at in post #3? Is there anything to be done about correcting it?

Anyway, that's definitely my Emma, born January 1854 Cowling, and Maggie, born December 1878 Sutton. A confectionery picker? Must look into what that is! I wonder who Arthur is, if anything, besides just a boarder?

Yes, this family exploded rather spectacularly. You have to go back to 1881 when Walter was 6 and Maggy was 2 to find them all together.

No, I don't know if Maggie and Charlie had any children. I must say it has crossed my mind. That's a very interesting prospect you unearthed, Elizabeth. Thanks for that. You've sent me off to troll through the Lancashire OPC. That will keep me busy for awhile.

Margaret, that's a great thought. Not sure what exact question to ask them. I have no experience and very little familiarity with UK electoral rolls. I'll have to educate myself. Thanks very much!

MargaretMarch
05-08-11, 17:39
Is it worth asking the Burnley Register Office to check the actual register for the age of Charles in case it was mis-transcribed to GRO, assuming that's where you got the cert from.
Margaret

Janet
05-08-11, 17:41
Oh, brilliant, Margaret! Can I accomplish that from across the pond?

MargaretMarch
05-08-11, 17:42
For the electoral roll query all you ask is who was listed at an address for a number of years. You have to be very nice when you ask as the librarians often only do it as a favour so not too many years.

Margaret

MargaretMarch
05-08-11, 17:44
Oh, brilliant, Margaret! Can I accomplish that from across the pond?

You could ring/email the Burnley Register Office and ask them if they would mind checking, you could send a scan of the cert to show you already had it and explain why you are doubtful. They will need to know all the details of the date and place of marriage in any event.

Margaret

Janet
05-08-11, 17:45
Thank you Margaret!

MargaretMarch
05-08-11, 17:46
Here are the details of the local reference that will help them taken from Lancs BMD site
BERRY Maggie JOHNSON Charles 1919 Burnley Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston Lancashire RM/186/155

Janet
05-08-11, 18:01
Very helpful, Margaret, can't thank you enough!

Janet
05-08-11, 19:58
Have sent off an email to the Burnley RO, so crossing fingers on that one. Tonight or tomorrow I will see about asking the local library to check the electoral roll for the Leigh address. Thanks again Margaret and Elizabeth!

Langley Vale Sue
06-08-11, 08:21
Googling "Dyson's Fold Farm 311 Wigan Rd., Leigh", brings up this.

There is a marriage of an Abraham Kearsley aged 18 on 27 April 1932 - about the time of the address book entry? Listed on a Lancs OPC page.
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Hindley/stjohn/marriages_1921-1933.html

Don't know if that helps - probably not much :(

Janet
06-08-11, 14:44
Thanks so much for trying your hand, Sue. You set me thinking again. By playing around with the address in different combinations I found another son of the same father marrying 3 years later:
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Hindley/stjohn/marriages_1933-1944.html

These people are definitely there in the same time frame that Maggie and Charlie are reportedly there as well, so now I'm wondering if this was a place of employment for Charlie. In 1919 he said he was an Oil & Tallow Refiner (Master). I wonder if "Dyson's Fold Farm" was an actual working farm, where Charlie's services might have been of use to someone. I don't see why he would be employed by a fruiterer/greengrocer, though, do you? And even if they worked here, I don't know where that would lead me. So, like you, I suspect that it doesn't help much.

Ideas, anyone?

Marriage: 27 Apr 1932 St John the Evangelist Hindley Green, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Abraham Kearsley - 18 Grocery Shop Assistant Bachelor of 311 Dyson's Fold Farm, Wigan Road Leigh
Dora Jenkins - 17 Spinster of 722 Atherton Road
Groom's Father: James Kearsley, Fruiterer
Bride's Father: Charles Jenkins, Collier
Witness: James Kearsley; Gladys West; Lydia Leigh
Married by Licence by: T. E. Allen
Register: Marriages 1921 - 1933, Page 112, Entry 223
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Marriage: 23 Nov 1935 St John the Evangelist, Hindley Green, Hindley, Lancashire, England
John Leigh Kearsley - 25 yrs Mill-hand Bachelor of 311 Wigan Road Leigh
Beatrice May Clarke - 20 yrs Spinster of 95 Leigh Road
Groom's Father: James Kearsley, Greengrocer
Bride's Father: Herbert Henry Clarke, Gardner[sic]
Witness: Thomas Richard Kearsley; Herbert Henry Clarke; Annie Clarke; M. Chadwick
Married by: T. E. Allen
Notes: [Not recorded whether by Banns or other]
Register: Marriages 1933 - 1944, Page 30, Entry 60
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Merry
06-08-11, 16:15
That's a very long courtship, Janet! Do you think they had to wait for the death of Mrs Berry before they could tie the knot? They didn't wait very long after her death, did they? :eek:

Janet
06-08-11, 20:41
Exactly what I was thinking, Merry! Do you know how long it took me to find that marriage? I think my ggrandmother Emma was quite a piece of work. :d

Merry
07-08-11, 13:21
To me he looks significantly older than Maggie in that wedding photo, certainly not younger. What a pity his name is a common one. We need the 1921 census really!!

Janet
07-08-11, 13:57
Thanks, Merry. That's what it looks to me too.