Second Marriages

[Muggins in Sussex]

I think I should know the answer to this- but I don't! :(

If a women marries a second ( or third etc!) husband, are the subsequent marriages likely to be registered in her maiden name or in her previous married name? :confused::confused:

Thanks

[Olde Crone]

Should be in her previous married name - her maiden name can be inferred from the name of her father on each certificate.

However, as with all certificates, depends what she said.........

OC

[Muggins in Sussex]

Thanks, OC :)

[JayG]

Agree with OC but I have a few divorced ladies who married for a second time & are indexed in the GRO under both their maiden & married names.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, sorry, I didn't elaborate!

Jane, late Smith, formerly Brown.

Brown could be a previous married name, or could be her maiden name - her father's name on the certificate will ascertain that usually (although I have one who led me a merry old dance because she gave her father's name. As she was illegitimate she took her mother's surname and it took me some time to realise what was going on - I thought she had been married twice).

GRO indexes will show all the surnames given on the certificate.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

I have a couple of people who used their maiden names because the second marriage was bigamous.

[kiterunner]

Yes, sorry, I didn't elaborate!

Jane, late Smith, formerly Brown.

Brown could be a previous married name, or could be her maiden name - her father's name on the certificate will ascertain that usually (although I have one who led me a merry old dance because she gave her father's name. As she was illegitimate she took her mother's surname and it took me some time to realise what was going on - I thought she had been married twice).

GRO indexes will show all the surnames given on the certificate.

OC

I think that "late Smith, formerly Brown" is usually what you find for mother's name on a birth certificate, rather than on a marriage cert. The marriage cert would give the bride's name as Jane Smith and her father's name as Brown. The early GRO indexes would only have her indexed as Smith, but there is a period when the indexes do list both surnames. Mother's maiden name on the birth index doesn't always show the "late" name either.

[Olde Crone]

Kate

Why would a birth certificate show a mother's previous married name? What would that have to do with the registration of a child born into any marriage?

OC

[kiterunner]

I don't know why it does, but it does!

[kiterunner]

This PDF (from an official site) explaining what is on a birth certificate says

Column 5: Name, surname and maiden name of mother
• if married once only, her maiden name is preceded by the word ‘formerly’
• if married more than once, the surname the mother had immediately before her last marriage is preceded by the word ‘late’ and then followed by ‘formerly’ and her maiden name
• if the mother was using and known by 2 different names at the time of the birth these names would be recorded with the word ‘otherwise

PDF download (http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_176217.pdf)

(sorry, this has strayed a bit from the question about marriage certs!)

[Margaret in Burton]

Kate

Why would a birth certificate show a mother's previous married name? What would that have to do with the registration of a child born into any marriage?

OC

My grandad's birth cert says mother Annie Yates, late Green formerly Birch.

It does miss out that she was married 3 times. First was to a Barker, then Green then Yates.

[Olde Crone]

How absolutely astonishing - can anyone suggest any reason why a mother's previous marriage is of any interest when registering the birth of a child to a new marriage?

OC

[Janet]

OC, wouldn't it serve to identify the woman when she is one of two or more in the same area with the same current name? They might have Mary Jones late Smith formerly Carter and Mary Jones late Taylor formerly Butcher. The name history tells which Mary Jones it is. Okay, I guess you're saying this belongs on the marriage cert, not the birth cert.

But it's certainly a good thing, at least for us, I think. On my grandmother's birth cert her mother is Elizabeth Spence late Wilson formerly Crampton. Her father is George Spence, but there are many George Spences (and many Elizabeth Spences) and not all from the same family; and perhaps another George married an Elizabeth too, but with this detail on the cert I have no doubt that I have the right family.

This is a very useful thread for me. Thanks Muggins. Hope you don't mind the detours. We've wound up all over the map about how women's name history is expressed on certificates in general. Come to think of it, anybody know if the name history ever figures on the death cert?

[kiterunner]

It does nowadays, Janet; the modern death certificate shows a woman's maiden name, but the old ones don't.

[Janet]

Rats. Would have liked to have a double-check that I've got hold of the right Emma Berry's death cert for my ggrandmother. (Awaiting its arrival imminently!) Thanks Kite.

[Olde Crone]

Janet

I really can't believe the GRO were interested in facilitating future family historians, lol! Your examples only work for women who have been married twice - what about those only married once, but with identical details? I have at least one example in my tree of two same name cousins marrying two women with identical names and identical fathers' names.

OC

[kiterunner]

How absolutely astonishing - can anyone suggest any reason why a mother's previous marriage is of any interest when registering the birth of a child to a new marriage?

OC

I suppose one obvious situation would be if the child was conceived while the mother was still married to her first husband.

[Olde Crone]

Kate

No, don't buy that either, because the legislation drawn up for civil registration clearly states that the father of a married woman's child is her husband unless her husband says any different ( and can prove it). What the neighbours say, or what a previous spouse says, is immaterial.

Divorce wasn't taken into consideration when the legislation was drafted, as divorce was such a rare thing, which is why a woman's previous married name must always appear as "late" because it was taken for granted at that time that the only way a marriage would end was in death of one spouse.

OC

[kiterunner]

I don't think it's "late" in the sense of "dead", just that that was what she was most recently called. One of the dictionary definitions of "late" is "most recent".

[Margaret in Burton]

I suppose one obvious situation would be if the child was conceived while the mother was still married to her first husband.

That doesn't apply to grandad. He was born in 1904 and his parents married in 1900. Still says, "mother Annie Yates late Green formerly Birch"

[Mary from Italy]

I don't think it's "late" in the sense of "dead", just that that was what she was most recently called.

That's correct.

[kiterunner]

That doesn't apply to grandad. He was born in 1904 and his parents married in 1900. Still says, "mother Annie Yates late Green formerly Birch"

I wasn't saying that the situation I suggested would be the only situation in which the birth cert should say "late" on it. As I understand it, if the mother was previously married, her previously married surname should always appear on the cert along with her current one and her maiden one. I was just suggesting one possible reason why the information might be important.

[Kit]

Rats. Would have liked to have a double-check that I've got hold of the right Emma Berry's death cert for my ggrandmother. (Awaiting its arrival imminently!) Thanks Kite.

My great grandma's death certificate was unhelpful in that it did not give a maiden name. However in the name column it had in brackets "wife of X" which was very helpful. It also mentioned that the witness was her son.

[MargaretMarch]

When I got married for the second time in 1991 I did so in my current name which was that of my first husband.The register, certificate and the index show only that name but of course my father's name gives my maiden surname.
I wasn't asked if I had been married any other times just for my status which was divorced.
Margaret

[Tom Tom]

As far as I understood it a marriage is always registered in the ladies current name, so will not appear in the index in her maiden name (if she is a widow).

Regarding divorce, the marriages I have where a divorced lady has remarried has always been indexed as Smith or Jones.

With births, the Mary Wilson, late Cook, formerly Green is used when a lady has been married previously although the interesting point OC raises is why they would need to know this in 1837 when registration started - the answer from me is I have no idea!

[MargaretMarch]

Regarding divorce, the marriages I have where a divorced lady has remarried has always been indexed as Smith or Jones.

Strange then that mine wasn't.
I have seen double listings where someone has changed their name by deed poll or simply had a 'known as name'.
Margaret

[kiterunner]

I think there was just a certain period of time when the index worked like that, Margaret.

[MargaretMarch]

Right thanks,
Margaret

[Merry]

I think there was just a certain period of time when the index worked like that, Margaret.

I think it MAY relate to what is actually written on the cert and in which box (and possibly also only for a certain period in history or after a certain date)

I have two divorced bride marriage certs from the 1950s. Both are completed in the same format: In the "Name and Surname" box is stated "Mary Smith formerly Jones" and in the Condition box who they were divorced from. On my own second marriage cert (1990s) there is ony one surname in the Name and Surname box (the name I used which was the surname of my previous husband) and no mention of the full name of my previous husband.

[MargaretMarch]

That's the same for me in the 1990's I was not asked to say where I got my surname from given that it was different to my father's.

I believe I did have to produce the divorce paper to show I was not still married having declared I had been.

Margaret