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tenterfieldjulie
27-07-11, 10:12
Name: William George Greentree
Date and place of birth: 27 December 1880/1, Tamworth NSW, Australia
Names of parents: Thomas and Catherine Greentree nee Cohen (on marriage and death certificate)
Marriage: 9 August 1902 RC Church, Inverell, NSW to Annie Agatha Gray (Have marriage registration in name of Wm. George)
Occupation(s): Tin Miner
Military service: Unknown
Addresses where they lived: Elsmore, Via Inverell, NSW Australia.
Date, place and cause of death: 14 December, 1953 District Hospital Inverell - Brain injuries accidentally received from a fall in the Hospital Ward - Inquest finding. (Death certificate in the name of William Greentree born Tamworth age 73)
Date and place of burial: 16 December 1953 - Roman Catholic Cemetery, Elsmore, Via Inverell, NSW, Australia
Details of will: Unknown
Memorial inscription: Have photo. Small rural cemtery a few kilometres from Inverell in inland Northern NSW - William George Greentree Date of death 14/12/1953 aged 72 years (death cert says 73)

Children 12: Laurie (Ben Lomond), Dora Lindsay (Toowoomba), Geoffrey (Sydney), Clarice Wilson (Sydney), Mavis Doran (Uralla), Jim (Elsmore), Anne Waite (Newcastle), Sid (Muswellbrook), Lorna Curry (Manly), Les (Elsmore), Reg (Inverell) and 1 female still living

HarrysMum
27-07-11, 11:17
You've got me thinking Julie.....

I'm sure I had some rellies from Elsmore...thinking along the Grant line.

I vaguely remember this odd story about a house being divided and one member of the family had a different address but lived in the same house. I know...that sounds idiotic, but that's what I remember.

We went there ages ago.......from Glen to Inverell and turned left just before Inverell then there was a T junction........

I rambling.....lol. It will come to me......(I hope)

tenterfieldjulie
28-07-11, 09:50
Libby, Just recently a cousin from Inverell got a Govt. Grant and an Inverell Club erected name blocks on all of the unmarked graves in the Cemetery. It has a very well maintained community hall as well. I attended a family reunion there for the Gray/Greentrees in 2008.

tenterfieldjulie
02-11-14, 08:33
I've just been looking at Greentree online information and some research has been done to say that, although on his marriage William George Greentree said his parents were Thomas Greentree and Catherine Cohen, they were in fact his grandparents. That his mother was in fact Mary Ann Greentree, their oldest daughter, who gave birth to a George Greentree in 1878 at Tamworth and that he later acquired the name William. It said that he was brought up by Thomas and Catherine and who had a son Richard in 1879 so the two boys were brought up as brothers.. The William I thought was WG, was reg 1871 at Windsor and they said he was William Edward. The funny thing was that some years back I was talking to someone in Tamworth about why the Greentree book called They Stood Tall was never published and they said that 2 ladies objected to some information that came out in the proof of this book. I am now wondering if this is the information they object to, or whether it was something else. How do I go about trying to unravel this information? Is it possible. I have to been unable to see conclusively whether Mary Ann Greentree married or died after WG was born. Catherine Cohen is sometimes called Katherine and sometimes Kathleen. Any suggestions appreciated. Julie

kiterunner
02-11-14, 12:09
The NSW BDM site lists two William Greentrees born in 1872, one the son of Thomas and Catherine, registered at Windsor, and one the son of George and Emma, registered at Grafton, but neither of them has a middle name listed.
Then George Greentree, son of Mary, was born 1880, registered at Tamworth. No middle name for him either.

The William, son of George and Emma, died 1935 Grafton, and William, son of Thomas and Catherine, died 1954 at Inverell. Neither of them has a middle name shown on the death index.

I can't see a death for George, son of Mary, on there.

But if the William who died in 1954 was really George, son of Mary, what happened to William, son of Thomas and Catherine? I don't see another death reg for him. Of course he could have died outside of NSW.

kiterunner
02-11-14, 12:15
Mary A Greentree born 1858 Windsor, parents Thomas and Catherine.
I can't see what happened to her either.

kiterunner
02-11-14, 12:46
On William George's probate file from 1953 his occupation is pensioner, but on the 1953 e roll he is a miner. Could just be because they hadn't updated the occupation on the e roll though. But it seems to fit better with being born in 1880 than in 1872.

kiterunner
02-11-14, 14:08
Going back to Mary or Mary Ann Greentree, some trees on ancestry show her marrying a Charles Frederick Fretson, or Frederickson, or other variations on that name, in 1881. It comes up on NSW BDM as Charles F Fretson / Mary Ann Greenhee, 1881, Walcha. Then the public trees show her death as 1921 at Caulfield, Victoria. According to Ancestry's Australian Death Index, the entry is for Mary Ann Fredrickson, age 63, Cauld, Victoria, father Carl Fredrickson, mother Gruntrie, 1921. Registration number ??985. So if ancestry's data is in a bit of a muddle, it could be her.

kiterunner
02-11-14, 14:16
Electoral register, Victoria, 1914
Frederickson:
Carl Frederick, 4 Vickery St, Malvern East, labourer
Carl Richard, 4 Vickery St, Malvern East, driver
Frederick John, Vickery St, Malvern East, driver
Louis, 4 Vickery St, Malvern East, labourer
Mary Ann, 4 Vickery St, Malvern East, home duties
Willie Henry, Vickery St, Malvern East, labourer.

kiterunner
02-11-14, 14:18
I was just wondering whether Willie Henry could be William George, but there is a William Henry Fretson born 1888 Yarra Flats, Victoria, son of Charles and Mary Ann, so never mind.
Oh, and looking back, William George was married long before 1914 anyway.

tenterfieldjulie
02-11-14, 14:50
Kate, I think we can rule out George born 1880. Mary Ann Greentree m Carl or Charles Fretson/Frederickson/Fredrickson in 1881 .. with children born in NSW and Vic and they come together in one of the Electoral Rolls in Victoria on Ancestry. Mary Ann Greentree is named on Vic births a number of times as their mother . She ends up with 11 children who appear to survive. George doesn't marry and dies age 46 in Vic.

I examined the details in the book on the Greentree family and while it gives a lot of information it makes a lot of errors that were easily found when checking indexes.

The info does however uncover a number of interesting conundrums ..regarding Thomas children.. I tried to follow them all .. and their appear to be some that aren't registered and possibly at least one child that Thomas sires and Catherine rears.

However nearly 2 am and so I must get some shuteye. Thanks for all your help. It is really appreciated.

tenterfieldjulie
03-11-14, 01:51
Think you should have a rest before you read this:eek:

I am trying to sort the family of Thomas Greentree who married Catherine Cohen – I found written in an article online, the following (in bold print) : Their children, in known order, were (details in Italics are what I have found from NSW BDMs)
Mary Ann 24 December 1857, Mary A 1858 Windsor - Mary Ann Greenhee m Charles F Fretson, Walcha 1881 (Carl Frederick Frederickson)Mary Ann Greentree’s son George birth reg 1880;
Sarah Jane 14 July 1860, Sarah J 1860 Windsor - Sarah J m Thomas Dodd, 1878 Tamworth;
Clara 1863, Clara A 1863 Windsor - Clara M James Ayre , 1883 Tamworth;
Thomas James 1865, Thomas J 1865 Windsor – Thomas m Mary A Duggan, 1897 Tamworth;
Harriet Elizabeth 16 February 1868, Harriet 1868 Windsor – Harriett E m Thomas H Lane, 1890 Tamworth;

William Ernest 1872, William 1872 Windsor –
William E m Mary A Lane, Tamworth 1893; William C m Annie A Gray, Inverell 1902; Are the same person? If so was the 1st wife dead or alive 1902?
I do have the Greentree/Gray Cert so I must check it for details.

Annie Maria 4 April 1874, Annie Maria 1874 Windsor – died 1900 Tamworth;
James 1878 and Not found!!
Richard 1880. Richard 1878 Tamworth – Richard m Agnes A Sipple, Tamworth 1907.

Firstly, Thomas when registering Harriet in 1868, stated he had one boy and three girls living, one boy and one girl deceased, yet, his death certificate, some thirty-eight years later, only refers to one deceased child, that being Annie Maria who died Tamworth 1900.
It is highly likely that Thomas' son Alfred, when registering his father's death, had no knowledge of any deceased children earlier in his parent's life. (From Phillip Greentree’s draft “They Stood Tall”) Also after Thomas died in 1902 was written. The informant was Thomas' son Alfred who was still living at home, never to leave.So who is Alfred?

We know from the roll of the Nemingha school in 1878, that Thomas and Catherine Greentree's property was just half a mile from the school. Clara Ann [15], Thomas James [12], Harriet [9], William [6], Anne Maria [4] and Alfred Shepherd [8] were all enrolled. (From Phillip Greentree’s draft “They Stood Tall”)
Was Thomas’ son Alfred, the Alfred Shepherd aged 8 enrolled at Nemingha school in 1878? .. so born C1870. Contender s are - born 1869 at Warialda, to single mother Susannah – problem with this is that Greentrees didn’t come to Tamworth till after 1874 – Thomas could have raised him, but I wouldn’t have thought that he was his birth father .. The other one is an Alfred born 1872 at Richmond, mother Jemima. Thomas was in that area then so he could be the natural father. However the age is a bit out. With Catherine acting as a midwife, she could also have taken in babies whose mother’s single mother’s couldn’t care for them, so there may not be a birth connection.

From Phillip Greentree’s draft “They Stood Tall” - Now things become very jumbled, so I will try to sort it into paragraphs that make sense.

In the following years, (after Thomas death in 1902) Catherine lived to see Richard, her youngest marry Ansetina Agnes Sippel (reg Agnes A Sipple 1907) and Clara marry James Ayers (reg Ayre 1883). (People’s memories, or someone’s recordings are very confused)

Family legend also claims that she experienced the tragedy of James serving his country in the Great War, only to return and find his fiancee married to another man. James there-after remained single. Given that James would have been 35 years old by the outbreak of war and that no James Greentree is listed in the records at the Australian War Memorial, one must doubt that story. I have not been able to find James birth or death .. so I am wondering if he existed?

(NOTE: In the same book, Philip says Richard had a fight with his fiancee, Ms White, and went off to New Zealand for two years; on his return, he was dismayed to find Ms White had married another! This is the James who appears in Tom ROBERTS' painting "Shearing at Newstead"!!! In one breath talking about Richard and now back to the elusive James )

Confusion reigns .. Greentree siblings!!
Questions are :
William Edward and William George .. Are they the same man?
Who is Alfred Shepherd?
Did James Greentree exist? Help!! Think I need a long rest ..

tenterfieldjulie
03-11-14, 08:11
I found the marriage entry for William Greentree and Annie Agatha Gray and unfortunately it doesn't give marital status to indicate whether he could be a widower. I have found the death cert of Annie, who died first, the information supplied by their son Geoffrey. William died as the result of brain injuries accidentally received by a fall in the Hospital Ward, so the informant was the coroner, the children's names are basically the same, except William has a note of one male deceased which is not on Annie's.
I think the way to go is to get Laurie (George Lorimer) birth cert, which should give me at least where his father was born, his age and whether he had older children.

kiterunner
03-11-14, 08:24
Ancestry's Australian Birth Index has James:
James Thomas F Greentree 1880, parents Thomas and Catherine; Gosford, NSW.
They also have, in addition to the ones that you listed:
Herbert T Greentree 1870, parents Thomas and Catherine; Brisbane Water, NSW.
Ada Sarah Greentree 1872, parents Thomas and Catherine; Macdonald River, NSW.
Emeline Maud Greentree 1873, parents Thomas and Catherine; Windsor, NSW.
Frederick Willis Greentree 1875, parents Thomas and Catherine; Windsor, NSW.
David George Greentree 1877, parents Thomas and Catherine; Windsor, NSW.
Hilda Minnie Greentree 1881, parents Thomas and Catherine; Windsor, NSW.
Ethen Emanuel J Greentree 1882, parents Thomas and Kate; Gosford, NSW.
Mary E Greentree 1884, parents Thomas and Catherine; Penrith, NSW.
Ella Greentree 1886, parents Thomas and Catherine; Penrith, NSW.

Could David George be William George? Could Ethen Emanuel J be James? Not sure which of them is a candidate for Alfred Shepherd! I suppose from the age given it should be Herbert T!

You might need another rest after reading that lot!

kiterunner
03-11-14, 08:31
David George Greentree seems to be a different person from William George as he shows up on the electoral registers and has a probate file.

Now that I have managed to get the NSW BDM site to load, I see that it also has those births I listed.

tenterfieldjulie
03-11-14, 08:40
I think a lot of people were confused with all those births but there were 3 marriages of a Thomas Greentree to Catherines. One in 1867 to Katherine/Catherine Hobbs and another in 1879 to Catherine Smallwood. I found on obit of Trove which takes care of a number of the ones who belong to Catherine Hobbs.

There passed away recently one of the oldest identities of Rooty Hill, in the person of Mrs. Katherine Greentree, wife of Mr. Thomas Greentree, Deceased, who had reached her 84th year, was a native of the Hawkesbury district, and prior to her wedding was Miss Hobbs, a name well known around Windsor.
With her husband and a young family, she went to reside at Plumpton over 40 years ago, and, during that time, had been one of the most respected residents.
She is survived by her husband and a family of grown-up sons and daughters, including Messrs. Herbert (Auburn), Frederick (Rooty Hill), George (Riverstone) (I presume this is the David George) , and Mesdames Erwin (Ada) and Curry (Emmeline) (Wentworthville), Halligan (Hilda) and Honeysett (Plumpton), and Walker (Ruby) (Enfield). (I couldn't find the Honeysett one)
In addition she leaves a large number of grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
(Newspaper dated 15/3/1924 - Cumberland Argus etc – Parramatta)

kiterunner
03-11-14, 08:51
Right, that makes sense.

Do you think that James Thomas F belongs to your couple, though?

tenterfieldjulie
03-11-14, 09:12
Kate, No I don't think it is the right couple, because "mine" were well settled in Tamworth. Thomas was supposed to be a sulky driver for a local Dr, as well as running a farm at Nemingha on the outskirts of Tamworth, where Farrer Agricultural College is now. Catherine was acting as a midwife. Gosford would not be where she would go to have a baby.
What I now feel may have happened, centres around Thomas' brother Richard.
Richard was born 1841 and married Margaret Hogue Jeffrey in 1867. Children: Richard born 1867, Alison 1869, Laura 1872, James M 1874 and George 1876. Richard unexpectedly died 16/7/1877, he was a farmer on the Cockburn River at Nemingha outside Tamworth. This is around the time that Thomas and family came to Tamworth, whether because of this I am not sure. We know that Thomas and Catherine had a son Richard in Tamworth in 1878, pretty obviously named after his just deceased uncle. Margaret Greentree (widow) married Henry Hunt in Tamworth in 1878 .. Sarah born 1879, Henry John R Jnr born 1880 and Georgina M born 1882 at Tamworth .. there is also a Mary born 1892 at Wilcannia, but not sure it is the right Henry and Margaret Hunt as parents. I am wondering now if the two small Greentree boys, James and George, morphed into sons of Thomas, as Richard was dead? They certainly wouldn't have remembered their birth father and may not have been very welcome by their step father. This is only supposition of course .. Thanks for your interest Kate .. I am sure flying blind here ..

kiterunner
03-11-14, 09:36
There is a George Greentree death 1917 Hunters Hill, NSW, father Richard but no mother's name on the index.

tenterfieldjulie
03-11-14, 10:15
I can discount George Fitzherbert Greentree son of Richard and Margaret because I found him on the ERolls living in Taree with wife Violet Foxe. He died in Tamworth in 1962.
It was looking so promising too because Margaret Hogue Jeffrey's 2nd husband Henry Hunt died in 1883. Poor lady was then left with another 4 yr old, 2 yr old and a 1 yr old as well as the other 5 Greentrees ..