View Full Version : Peter Henry Harrison
Margaret in Burton
22-07-11, 08:41
Name - "official" name and what they were known as
Peter Henry Harrison (Harry to workmates much to the annoyance of his wife)
Date and place of birth
22 July 1885 (22nd July is the day they celebrated his birthday and confirmed on the 1939 register) in Rotherham, Yorkshire ( from the 1911 census)- No birth cert has ever been discovered
Names of parents
Unknown – marriage cert says his father was ‘ Thomas Harrison – deceased’ – think that’s a red herring – also he is only listed as Peter not Peter Henry.
Details of each of his or her marriages - if any - and any divorces
25 December 1908 at Holy Trinity Church, Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire to Lily Cox (http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10663)
Occupation(s) - if any
Coal Miner and soldier before and during WW1
Military service - if any
Regimental number 8003, Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. Posted for duty at Castleford 09/12/1903. Posted to Pontefract 15/12/1903,and to Aldershot 04/02/1904. Embarked aboard S S Dilwara 17/02/1905 and reached Gibralter 22/02/1905. Examined for extension of service and considered fit 10/04/1906.
Was recalled for duty in 1914 - Prisoner of War ( date not recorded) although the record states that he was in France for one month and in Germany for four years and four months. So it can be assumed that he was captured soon after arrival in France. He received the 1914 Star, The British War Medal and the Victory Medal. Discharged due to demobilization on the 11/04/1919.
Army record stated his place of birth as Ashby de la Zouch but that was filled in on his recall to the army as a reserve for WW1. It was where he was living at the time.
His army record has been 'weeded' and no details of place of birth from when he first enlisted are in his records. ( He covered his tracks well)
Addresses where they lived - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on, if applicable.
Can’t find him in 1891 or 1901
1908 – 1913 - The Green, Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire
1913 – 1919 – Military service including a time as a POW
1919 – 1965 – 139 Swadlincote Road, Woodville, Derbyshire
Date, place and cause of death
21 April 1965 at 326 Uxbridge Street, Burton on Trent, Staffordshire (his son’s home) – cause - Coronary Artery Desease and Emphysema
Date and place of burial / cremation.
Cremated at Markeaton, Derby
Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable
House and contents left to his unmarried son (although the house wasn’t in the will he asked on his deathbed for the other siblings to let him live there which they took as give to him)
Memorial inscription - if any
No
I have mentioned Peter so many times on these boards, Merry is sick of his name. He would never tell his family anything about his early life, just said he wasn’t wanted. We only discovered he was from Rotherham on the 1911 census although it was assumed he was from Yorkshire. He isn’t the Peter Harrison born in 1885 in York as that person is still in York in 1911.
As a POW
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/PeterHenryHarrison-PrisonerofWarWW1.jpg
Anstey Nomad
22-07-11, 09:31
It was inevitable, wasn't it? I hope something comes of this for you Marg - and for Dave!
AN
I don't think I've seen his photo before!
What else can we try? There must be something???
Anstey Nomad
22-07-11, 11:02
I haven't read the old stuff in any detail, so I can't promise anything new, so, eyes down and back to basics. In fact, it might be easier to work backwards.
You know when, where and why he died and what happened afterwards (bit of a schlep from where you are to Markeaton Marg – that was more my neck of the woods)
You know where he lived between completing his military service in 1919 and his death in 1965.
You have his army record, which covers the years of his service, but does not shed any light on his antecedents.
You have his marriage in 1908 and you are not confident that either his name or the details of his father are correct. Can you confirm there is no next of kin on the early part of the record?
You can’t find his birth registration and can’t be 100% sure that either the date or the year is correct.
So basically everything before he enlists in the army is at best uncertain and at worst a complete mystery and a lot of the rest is not too clear either.
*calls for icepack*
For the sake of completeness, this is him in 1911 at 14 The Green Ashby de la Zouch, verified by the other residents:
HARRISON, PETER HEAD MARRIED M 25 COAL MINER HEWER ROTHERAM YORKSHIRE
HARRISON, LILLY WIFE MARRIED 2 F 25 LEICESTERSHIRE ASHBY - DE LA ZOUCH
HARRISON, FLORENCE DAUGHTER SINGLE F 1 LEICESTERSHIRE ASHBY - DE LA ZOUCH
COX, MARY MOTHER WIDOW F 67 LEICESTERSHIRE ASHBY - DE LA ZOUCH
WILKINS, JAMES LODGER SINGLE M 48 RAILWAY SERVANT WAGGON EMPTIER LEICESTERSHIRE APPLEBY MAGNA
Our chap would have been 15 at the time of the 1901 census, 16 later in the year, so he ought to appear on the census as some sort of worker, apprentice, whatever, but I have to say he’s not jumping out at me!
*polishes crystal ball*
How about this as a scenario?
He joined the army in 1903 at the age of 18, just before Christmas, which suggests to me that he had not got a lot to look forward to if he stayed at home, wherever that was.
Tying in with what he said about not being wanted, do you think it’s possible that he grew up in some sort of institution? They would have kicked him out at 14 or so, perhaps he couldn’t make a go of it on his own and he opted for another institution where he wouldn’t have to worry about stuff like food and where to sleep. Had he got himself into some sort of trouble as an additional spur to joining up and did it go something like this:
What’s your name lad?
Er…
Come on lad, speak up!
Er…Peter … Harrison … sir
It’s as good a name as any.
Is that the wrong answer?
AN
Margaret in Burton
22-07-11, 11:44
AN
Next of kin on the army record is his wife Lily as it was written in 1913 when he rejoined.
No next of kin at all is noted for his early army career. We got these army records before they were on Ancestry. If you check Ancestry you will see my FIL's birth cert amongst them and a letter he wrote giving us permission to have the records from the army. The army did tell us that they had been weeded, didn't give a reason.
Yes that is him in Ashby in 1911.
He was repeatedly asked apparently about his family by his children as they were growing up and about their "other grandparents". They were always told "I wasn't wanted and that's all you need to know".
Apparently some people used to think he was Italian and he denied it rather angrily.
His son Reg, whose house he died at, asked him again on his death bed about his family and he still refused to tell.
As I said, he covered his tracks very well.
Merry and I have talked over the possibility of an institution in the past and Dave and I want to get to Rotherham Archives to see if there are any Workhouse records. They charge a fortune to do research for you. It's finding time to go that is the problem.
Anstey Nomad
22-07-11, 12:12
Phew! At least I am not completely off the wall then.
Isn't there anyone on here who might have cause to go to Rotherham Archives and might live a bit nearer, who could perhaps do some groundwork for you?
AN
Anstey Nomad
22-07-11, 12:18
Best check before you travel - there doesn't seem to be any mention of workhouse records in their 134 page explantory booklet.
However, these chaps might know more of what's about: Rotherham Family History Society www.rotherhamfhs.co.uk
Even better, they might have a member whose been trying for years to find out what happened to grandad's brother who disappeared in 1903 - can't find a death anywhere!
AN
Did Peter Harris with the Derbyshire connection get completely discounted?
Margaret in Burton
22-07-11, 12:58
Did Peter Harris with the Derbyshire connection get completely discounted?
I think so Merry, not altogether certain though.
Margaret in Burton
22-07-11, 12:58
Best check before you travel - there doesn't seem to be any mention of workhouse records in their 134 page explantory booklet.
However, these chaps might know more of what's about: Rotherham Family History Society www.rotherhamfhs.co.uk
Even better, they might have a member whose been trying for years to find out what happened to grandad's brother who disappeared in 1903 - can't find a death anywhere!
AN
I'll look into that over the weekend
Anstey Nomad
24-07-11, 12:46
Just found this - is this what they meant about his army record?
Every soldier had a service record, although only some 30% or so now exist.
A service record consists of a number of different army forms used to record information about a soldier during his military career. The numbers and types of forms in a man’s record vary greatly from soldier to soldier, as does the quality and legibility of the information they contain. Service records often also contain private correspondence: for example if a man was enquiring with regard to his medals or if a widow was enquiring about a pension.
The records were thinned out before going into storage in the 1930s, by disposal of many documents.
An army service record is the only source likely to give family, age, birthplace and trade information.
AN
Margaret in Burton
24-07-11, 14:20
Bl**dy hell I suppose so. If they hadn't have done that then we might have known more about him. Grrrrr :mad::mad::mad:
Margaret in Burton
25-07-11, 16:24
I don't think I've seen his photo before!
What else can we try? There must be something???
Were you beginning to doubt he ever existed? :D:D:D
Oh, I'm sure there are loads of people we regularly look for on ths site who have never really existed :D
He was repeatedly asked apparently about his family by his children as they were growing up and about their "other grandparents". They were always told "I wasn't wanted and that's all you need to know".
Hi Marg
Spending a lot of time trawling through the thousands of posts made before I joined the site. Now and again a statement makes me curious.
By repeatedly saying that he wasn't wanted was he implying that he was either adopted or placed with other family members to raise him?
If the first is a possibility then was Harrison his adopted name or birth name? If a child is adopted is their original birth registration removed?
Just a thought - sorry to throw in even more confusion.
John
kiterunner
09-01-13, 19:08
Hi Marg
Spending a lot of time trawling through the thousands of posts made before I joined the site. Now and again a statement makes me curious.
By repeatedly saying that he wasn't wanted was he implying that he was either adopted or placed with other family members to raise him?
If the first is a possibility then was Harrison his adopted name or birth name? If a child is adopted is their original birth registration removed?
Just a thought - sorry to throw in even more confusion.
John
If he was adopted it would have been before the formal adoption system was brought in. And if a child is adopted under that system, their original birth registration is not removed but their birth certificate would have "Adopted" written on it.
Margaret in Burton
03-11-14, 13:13
Dare I bump this up?
I still am no further forward in this mystery man.
Was wondering if the Regimental Muster lists at the National Archives might have some info ie where he joined up etc.
There's a Peter Henry Carrington born in Jul qtr 1885 at Skipton
given the accent perhaps it might be him.
Dare I bump this up?
*faints* :eek:
That Peter Henry Carrington died aged 3.
There are no Musters for such "recent" dates
Margaret in Burton
03-11-14, 19:35
There's a Peter Henry Carrington born in Jul qtr 1885 at Skipton
given the accent perhaps it might be him.
ooooooohhh
*faints* :eek:
That Peter Henry Carrington died aged 3.
Doh!
Margaret in Burton
03-11-14, 19:36
Was wondering if the Regimental Muster lists at the National Archives might have some info ie where he joined up etc.
There are no Musters for such "recent" dates
Another dead end then.
They just mentioned on the BBC1 programme 9.15 this morning
the Regimental Admissions Register? (well I think it was as I was just passing the tv at the time) which gave further details of a person when they joined - perhaps that's too late for Peter.
Margaret in Burton
04-11-14, 09:19
They just mentioned on the BBC1 programme 9.15 this morning
the Regimental Admissions Register? (well I think it was as I was just passing the tv at the time) which gave further details of a person when they joined - perhaps that's too late for Peter.
Where would that be Julie? Is it online or just at the National Archives? I don't have a cat in hells chance of getting to TNA.
Sorry I was only passing through the room when I saw it - not even sure it was Regimental admissions now - will have to look at the programme again on rewind to find out exactly.
When I needed some military records looked up at the NA sometime ago I used a military researcher at very reasonable cost - not sure if he still does it. Kevin Asplin was his name.
Update it was the Honorable Artillery Company that had the admissions book.
It might be worth contacting the Regiment Peter first joined to see what Regimental records they know of that might shed some light. Here's a link to the Regimental Museum.
http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/sections/leisureandculture/museumsandgalleries/doncastermuseumandartgallery/King_s_Own_Yorkshire_Light_Infantry_Museum.aspx
http://www.nam.ac.uk/research/famous-units/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry
tenterfieldjulie
04-11-14, 10:56
I used Kevin a couple of years ago. I thought he was very good too.
There are Description books at the National Archives which is a similar sort of thing but they are for the 19th century. Worth trying the regiment, though, to see if they have anything on him.
Margaret in Burton
04-11-14, 14:30
We did try the regimental museum ages ago. Nothing, referred us to TNA.
I'll have another go.
Remember, I do have his military record, not just from Ancestry but from The Army archives themselves many years before they went online. We had to produce proof that OH's father was his son and he had to write giving us permission to receive them. Much like you have to now when you order WW2 records.
They commented that the records had been 'weeded'. Their words. It told when he joined and where. No mention of next of kin or place of birth. The place of birth of the records when he was recalled for WW1 says Ashby de la Zouch, which was where he lived at the time not his place of birth which according to the 1911 census was Rotherham. He joined the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry in 1903 in Pontefract.
It was the actual Regimental records that I was referring to. There may be something at the National Archives - Muster lists, pay lists and as with HAC an admission book - you never know.
I found out the date a soldier joined, his age 17.3 and where he enlisted by looking at records for the 7lst Regiment of Foot.
As I said, Julie, there are no musters for this period at Kew.
What about pay books - I found death registered on one as his pay stopped and it said deceased even though no-one ever registered it.
None of them either for this period, Julie
There are the Red Cross WW1 POW records which have recently appeared online although they are not yet complete. Worth a look, even though they may well not help as they will relate to his WW1 service and not earlier service.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search
Margaret in Burton
04-11-14, 15:36
I know all about his WW1 service, what there was of it as he was taken prisoner in 1915. What I need are the earlier records from 1903. He must have been discharged pre 1908 as he married Christmas Day 1908 in Ashby de la Zouch. Apparently he was on his way to London from Yorkshire after he was demobbed and stopped off in Ashby and met his future wife.
Margaret in Burton
04-11-14, 15:45
None of them either for this period, Julie
There are the Red Cross WW1 POW records which have recently appeared online although they are not yet complete. Worth a look, even though they may well not help as they will relate to his WW1 service and not earlier service.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search
I can't see him listed in there.
Margaret
The POW records are not all on there yet. Unfortunately, though, I don't think they'll help.
Did he get an Army Pension for his WW1 service? There are the Pension records held by the Western Front Association, but, again, they will probably just refer to WW1 service.
Margaret in Burton
04-11-14, 17:50
Margaret
The POW records are not all on there yet. Unfortunately, though, I don't think they'll help.
Did he get an Army Pension for his WW1 service? There are the Pension records held by the Western Front Association, but, again, they will probably just refer to WW1 service.
All I have is on this thread Ann. We just don't know. He refused to talk about anything.
Doesn't it say in his WW1 service records?
Margaret in Burton
04-11-14, 18:46
Doesn't it say in his WW1 service records?
No clues at all. Read it for yourself.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&MS_AdvCB=1&db=BritishArmy&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=2&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=Peter&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=Harrison&gsln_x=XO&dbOnly=_F8007A65%7c_F8007A65_x%2c_F0007CF4%7c_F000 7CF4_x&uidh=p77&pcat=39&fh=9&h=353294&recoff=&ml_rpos=10
Looks as though there was a pension - document headed "Award Sheet First Award". You could apply to the WFA for copies of any record they have, although you have to pay, whether they've got anything or not. They are quite slow, too - I'm waiting for one I applied for in June- and anyway, I would imagine it would only cover WW1 service.
Also, I think the next document after the above, headed "Medical History" is from when he first joined up in 1903 when place of birth is given is Ashby Dellah(!), although that doesn't fit the info from the 1911 census. The document isn't dated, though.
Margaret in Burton
04-11-14, 21:12
Looks as though there was a pension - document headed "Award Sheet First Award". You could apply to the WFA for copies of any record they have, although you have to pay, whether they've got anything or not. They are quite slow, too - I'm waiting for one I applied for in June- and anyway, I would imagine it would only cover WW1 service.
Also, I think the next document after the above, headed "Medical History" is from when he first joined up in 1903 when place of birth is given is Ashby Dellah(!), although that doesn't fit the info from the 1911 census. The document isn't dated, though.
Ashby Dellah is Ashby de la Zouch in Leicestershire. His wife was born there not him. The wife he married in 1908. They lived in Woodville, Derbyshire but that isn't far away from Ashby.
Margaret in Burton
04-11-14, 21:14
Ann
We applied, I think to Glasgow, about 25-30 years ago for his army record. We were told then it had been 'weeded' and nothing else was available.
Just giving some ideas, Margaret - nothing else to suggest
Margaret in Burton
05-11-14, 03:23
Just giving some ideas, Margaret - nothing else to suggest
I know, and thank you. He is a very frustrating person to try and research.
He is a very frustrating person to try and research.
Understatement of the century! :D
kiterunner
06-11-14, 08:12
The 1914 Star medal roll shows the date he was taken prisoner - 17 Oct 1914.
1914 Star medal roll on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5119/41803_626640_11984-00288/5378353?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dIWOServiceMeda lAwardRolls%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3 d2%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dharrison %26gsln_x%3dXO%26_F8007A65%3d8003%26dbOnly%3d_F800 7A65%257c_F8007A65_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00061C3%257c_F00 061C3_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000836E%257c_F000836E_x%26_F8 007A65_x%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
This is the medal roll for the other medals but doesn't have any extra info:
British War Medal and Victory Medal (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5119/41629_636897_11080-00100/3744326?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dIWOServiceMeda lAwardRolls%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3 d2%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dharrison %26gsln_x%3dXO%26_F8007A65%3d8003%26dbOnly%3d_F800 7A65%257c_F8007A65_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00061C3%257c_F00 061C3_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000836E%257c_F000836E_x%26_F8 007A65_x%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Margaret in Burton
06-11-14, 09:38
The 1914 Star medal roll shows the date he was taken prisoner - 17 Oct 1914.
1914 Star medal roll on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5119/41803_626640_11984-00288/5378353?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dIWOServiceMeda lAwardRolls%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3 d2%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dharrison %26gsln_x%3dXO%26_F8007A65%3d8003%26dbOnly%3d_F800 7A65%257c_F8007A65_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00061C3%257c_F00 061C3_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000836E%257c_F000836E_x%26_F8 007A65_x%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
This is the medal roll for the other medals but doesn't have any extra info:
British War Medal and Victory Medal (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5119/41629_636897_11080-00100/3744326?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dIWOServiceMeda lAwardRolls%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3 d2%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dharrison %26gsln_x%3dXO%26_F8007A65%3d8003%26dbOnly%3d_F800 7A65%257c_F8007A65_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00061C3%257c_F00 061C3_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000836E%257c_F000836E_x%26_F8 007A65_x%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
I have that and I've seen his actual medals. OH's uncle has them, hopefully my OH will inherit them.
Edit:. No, I don't think I have seen that before Kate. I've seen the normal medal roll.
Thanks Kate.
Margaret, I see your grandparents are on the 1939 register (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmprgunrfekohtuxrjnoesldarl5u7y jgyjyw6nmjua%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true). I assume you've unlocked their household - any clues?
Margaret in Burton
30-12-15, 11:22
Margaret, I see your grandparents are on the 1939 register (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmprgunrfekohtuxrjnoesldarl5u7y jgyjyw6nmjua%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true). I assume you've unlocked their household - any clues?
None at all James, other then confirming his date of birth. Doesn't help at all. Let's hope the 1921 census in 2022 :D has a clue, but somehow I doubt it. We've checked all of the Peter Harrison's of that age born anywhere in England and Wales.
Marg!!! When I saw you had posted here I got all excited!!! lol :eek::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Margaret in Burton
31-12-15, 09:23
Marg!!! When I saw you had posted here I got all excited!!! lol :eek::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
lol Merry
If I'd have found anything I wouldn't have snuck it in here. It would have had a brand new thread on all of the boards I reckon.
If the truth about PHH was uncovered, the least I'd expect would be an e-mail from the site admin to every member, and possibly a small segment on the six o'clock news.
Margaret in Burton
31-12-15, 19:20
If the truth about PHH was uncovered, the least I'd expect would be an e-mail from the site admin to every member, and possibly a small segment on the six o'clock news.
oh yes James but don't hold your breath.
tenterfieldjulie
31-12-15, 21:23
Hopefully soon Marg.
Margaret,
I was browsing the grandparent threads earlier and decided to have another shot at PHH. :)
A possible lead I've been looking into - albeit focusing on the Harrison surname, which you say he may well have made up - is a chap named Edward Harrison, although obviously if you can find him in 1911 then it would rule him out.
Here are the census returns I can find for his father (who is with him):
1871 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/WRYRG10_4706_4708-0106?pid=9309467&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH3713%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DThomas%26gsfn_x%3D 0%26gsln%3DHarrison%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1853%26 msbpn__ftp%3DParkgate,%2520Yorkshire,%2520England% 26msbpn%3D1682396%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5292%257C1682396%257C0%257C0%257C%26msrpn__ftp% 3DRotherham,%2520Yorkshire,%2520England%26msrpn%3D 89158%26msrpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5292%257C89158%257C0%257C0%257C%26mssng%3DAnnie %26_83004003-n_xcl%3Df%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26M SAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3DCEN_1870%26h%3D93094 67%26dbid%3D7619%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D10&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH3713&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) (possibly someone else)
1881 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/WILRG11_2041_2045-0209?pid=23152409&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH3708%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DThomas%26gsfn_x%3D 0%26gsln%3DHarrison%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1853%26 msbpn__ftp%3DParkgate,%2520Yorkshire,%2520England% 26msbpn%3D1682396%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5292%257C1682396%257C0%257C0%257C%26_83004003-n_xcl%3Df%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26M SAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3DCEN_1880%26h%3D23152 409%26dbid%3D7572%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D28&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH3708&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true)
1891 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/WRYRG12_3849_3850-0139?pid=3732224&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3Duki1891%26indiv%3Dtry%26h%3D3732224&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true)
1901 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/YRKRG13_4391_4393-0129?pid=27945197&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3Duki1901%26indiv%3Dtry%26h%3D27945197&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true)
He is the right age, he's a coal hewer, and he's from Rotherham (Masbrough, it looks like).
A possible marriage (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH3740&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Thomas&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Harrison&gsln_x=0&msgdy=1885&msgpn__ftp=Devizes,%20Wiltshire,%20England&msgpn=88246&msgpn_PInfo=8-%7C0%7C0%7C3257%7C3251%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C5290%7C88246% 7C0%7C0%7C&mssng=Anna&mssns=Watts&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=r&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=BMD_MARRIAGE&h=12859932&recoff=7%208&dbid=8913&indiv=1&ml_rpos=8) is:
December 1885 Devizes 5a 202:
Harrison Thomas
Watts Anna Milly
Of course, this could well be the wrong couple; perhaps they married in Yorkshire?
I thought I might have found some of the children, but if so the MMN - Willis - doesn't match Watts, so they're probably wrong.
HARRISON, THOMAS EDWARD GEORGE WILLIS
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 615
...died 1891.
HARRISON, EDWARD WILLIS
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 636
HARRISON, LILY WILLIS
GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 585
I did manage to find Lillie in 1911 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_28215_0451_03?pid=32744877&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH3726%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DLilly%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DHarrison%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy% 3D1891%26msbpn__ftp%3DRotherham,%2520Yorkshire,%25 20England%26msbpn%3D89158%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5292%257C89158%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DCEN_1910%26h%3D32744877%26dbid%3D2352%26indiv %3D1%26ml_rpos%3D20&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH3726&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true), and I think Thomas might have died in 1908:
Harrison Thomas 55 Rotherham 9c 373
Annie is here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_28043_0395_03?pid=37251480&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH3748%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3D1911England %26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DAnnie%26gsfn_x%3D0 %26gsln%3DHarrison%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1862%26m sbpn__ftp%3DDevizes,%2520Wiltshire,%2520England%26 msbpn%3D88246%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5290%257C88246%257C0%257C0%257C%26MSAV%3D1%26ui dh%3Dyke%26pcat%3DCEN_1910%26fh%3D0%26h%3D37251480 %26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH3748&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) (widowed) in 1911. Apparently three children are dead, but aside from Lillie I don't know the other two who are apparently still alive are. It might simply be that the three children from the previous census records (Hetty, Lilly, Edward) are all alive, and there had been three other children who died very young and don't appear on any census records.
I can't find Edward in 1911 (a good sign, I suppose?) but no doubt someone else will. It'd also be interesting to know what the children's births are.
This might well end up being a huge waste of time, and no doubt someone will find Edward in 1911, but I haven't (yet) and I thought it an avenue at least worth investigating.
I haven't looked for Edward at all yet, but, as you said, James, that marriage for the parents is wrong as here are the couple who married in 1885 on the 1891 census:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=14957222
I think the correct marriage is Q2 1882 in Rotherham.
There's an Edward Harrison born 1887 (24) on the 1911 census Overseas Military. His birthplace is listed as Kimberworth Rotherham Yorkshire and his address is Hongkong South China.
I don't know anything about where Kimberworth is or if it could be a similar area to Masborough.
A search of Kimberworth on maps.familysearch.org does come up with Masborough in the neighborhood.
Kimberworth, Yorkshire
Other places
Blackburn
Blacktown
Bradgate
Hill-top
Holmes
Jordan
Masborough
Masbrough
Massbrough
Nether Fold
Scholes
I think the correct marriage is Q2 1882 in Rotherham.
Yeah, Harris / Willis looks right, and it matches up with those births.
I couldn't find Hetty, though -- I tried Het* and Henrietta, but no joy.
There's another Edward Harrison b 1888 in Rotherham, son of Benjamin and Mary, but the military chap can't (shouldn't!) be him as Edward 1888 is still with his father in 1911.
Ah - CWGC:
Private
HARRISON, EDWARD
Service Number 8987
Died 26/10/1914
Aged 27
2nd Bn.
King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
Son of Mrs. Annie Harrison, of 2 Court, 4 House, Rawmarsh Rd., Rotherham.
Other versions on Ancestry say this man was born in Kimberworth, Rotherham in 1886, so he was most likely the man in the army in 1911.
As ever, a theory of mine is destroyed quickly and decisively. :D
lol That's happened to me loads of times too!!
Margaret in Burton
13-12-17, 17:46
Only just seen this. It looks like it’s a dead end then?
Margaret in Burton
05-09-19, 20:14
Update
I’ve finally had Rotherham archives check the workhouse registers. Peter’s remark of ‘I wasn’t wanted’ suggested foundling or something,
They checked from 1885, his supposed year of birth to 1903 when he joined the army. Nothing at all.
He was definitely transported here from outer space.
Both of my daughters have had their DNA tested but nothing yet links to any side of family that we don’t already know about. Unfortunately we left it too late to get my husband tested.
When I saw a post on this thread from you...…… :eek::eek::eek: lol I thought maybe you had discovered something!
I think PHH most be the biggest brick wall ever! Of course, more people every day are having DNA tests, so don't give up hope. Very interesting about Rotherham workhouse though.....
Margaret in Burton
05-09-19, 20:41
When I saw a post on this thread from you...…… :eek::eek::eek: lol I thought maybe you had discovered something!
I think PHH most be the biggest brick wall ever! Of course, more people every day are having DNA tests, so don't give up hope. Very interesting about Rotherham workhouse though.....
I was hoping to spring a big surprise. Luckily the research time only cost me £7-50.
Maybe on the 1921 census he came up with a different place of birth. I reckon he made his whole life up as he went along.
We need some TV genealogy “experts” to see if they can solve the problem.
I bet they wouldn’t be able to.
Not with the information we have already.
I too wonder about the 1921 census!
Olde Crone
05-09-19, 21:34
That sentence "I wasn't wanted" reminds me of a friend whose widowed mother remarried and his new stepfather hated him. I know that doesn't help find him but it is a thought to bear in mind when the 1921 census comes out.
OC
Margaret in Burton
05-09-19, 21:40
That sentence "I wasn't wanted" reminds me of a friend whose widowed mother remarried and his new stepfather hated him. I know that doesn't help find him but it is a thought to bear in mind when the 1921 census comes out.
OC
He’d left home by 1903 OC to join the army and apparently never went back home wherever home was. He was discharged from the army in Pontefract and was making his way to London when he arrived in Ashby de la Zouch and met his future wife. They married in 1908 in Ashby and stayed in the area. He was recalled to the army in 1914 and became a prisoner of war in 1915. We’ve always said that had he not become a POW he may have been killed and my father in law who was born in 1920 wouldn’t have existed.
Do your daughters have NO DNA matches that you cannot attribute to other branches of the family? If Peter was an only child and his parents had no siblings with descendants, then it will take the links further back, but they must be there.
I thought Granny was a changeling - all her roots are East Anglia, but Ancestry firmly says I have no East Anglian DNA. This is tosh, but all the connections are abt 11cM or less.
Margaret in Burton
06-09-19, 10:51
Do your daughters have NO DNA matches that you cannot attribute to other branches of the family? If Peter was an only child and his parents had no siblings with descendants, then it will take the links further back, but they must be there.
I thought Granny was a changeling - all her roots are East Anglia, but Ancestry firmly says I have no East Anglian DNA. This is tosh, but all the connections are abt 11cM or less.
Not so far.
All matches on my husbands / father in laws side are from Peter’s wife’s side.
I will have another look though when I get a day or so with nothing else to do.
Marg, Do you have a list of birth registrations (or anything) of people you have definitely eliminated? Sometimes I try again with PHH, but often find myself looking at the same people as we have looked at before! Usually I realise by searching some element of their details on this site and find a previous thread, but not always.
Margaret in Burton
06-09-19, 11:32
Marg, Do you have a list of birth registrations (or anything) of people you have definitely eliminated? Sometimes I try again with PHH, but often find myself looking at the same people as we have looked at before! Usually I realise by searching some element of their details on this site and find a previous thread, but not always.
No I don’t, but the idea is a very sensible one.
Margaret in Burton
06-09-19, 11:34
I did wonder about the time he enlisted in the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry in 1903 and to research the people with regimental numbers very close to his 8003. Thinking they might be mates and to find them on the 1901 census but I didn’t have any luck there either.
#48 on this thread lists the people either side of his number.
maggie_4_7
06-09-19, 12:11
I did wonder about the time he enlisted in the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry in 1903 and to research the people with regimental numbers very close to his 8003. Thinking they might be mates and to find them on the 1901 census but I didn’t have any luck there either.
#48 on this thread lists the people either side of his number.
Where did he enlist.
Margaret in Burton
06-09-19, 12:27
Where did he enlist.
Castleford
Margaret in Burton
06-09-19, 12:31
Regimental number 8003, 2nd Battalion, Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.
Posted for duty at Castleford 09/12/1903.
Posted to Pontefract 15/12/1903,and to Aldershot 04/02/1904.
Embarked aboard S S Dilwara 17/02/1905 and reached Gibralter 22/02/1905. Examined for extension of service and considered fit 10/04/1906
Discharged some time after this before recall in 1913-14
Prisoner of war WW1
The record states that he was in France for one month and in Germany for four years and four months.
Reported missing 26 Aug 1914, Prisoner of War from September 1915.
He was held at Friedrichsfeld POW camp in Germany. This was situated about 60 north of Cologne.
The record does not state when he was discharged from his original service. He married on Christmas Day 1908 in Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire when he met wife wife after apparently stopping there on his way to London after his discharge from the army.
maggie_4_7
06-09-19, 15:18
Castleford
Thank you, I wasn't sure if he enlisted somewhere else and then was posted to Castleford.
Anstey Nomad
13-09-19, 12:57
Just checking in to see if there have been any developments. One day there will be, I'm sure of it.
If he was in the KOYLIs before the war, he must be a Yorkshireman, surely?
If he wasn't wanted, did he grow up in an institution and show on earlier censuses by initials only?
Did he take the Harrison name when his mother re-married, or from whoever 'fostered' him?
Rotherham and Castleford are only 35 miles apart. I'm getting a strong sense that the answer to this lies in South Yorkshire.
Margaret in Burton
13-09-19, 19:49
Just checking in to see if there have been any developments. One day there will be, I'm sure of it.
If he was in the KOYLIs before the war, he must be a Yorkshireman, surely?
If he wasn't wanted, did he grow up in an institution and show on earlier censuses by initials only?
Did he take the Harrison name when his mother re-married, or from whoever 'fostered' him?
Rotherham and Castleford are only 35 miles apart. I'm getting a strong sense that the answer to this lies in South Yorkshire.
My father in law insisted his dad was a Yorkshireman, my thoughts are from at least 1908 to his death in 1965 he lived in South Derbyshire and worked in the pits where he would have picked up a south Derbyshire accent, and there are similarities with the two accents. Father in law wasn’t born until 1920 so well after his dad came home from the war.
I also think the man was a compulsive liar
Where else to try? I don’t mind paying for research as I have with Rotherham archives. Any suggestions for anything else other than the Workhouse?
One thing is for sure, the facts he gives us himself, name, date of birth and place of birth cannot all be accurate. The question is, are any of these 'facts' correct and if any of them are, which ones?!
I feel there much be some definite connection to Rotherham, even if he wasn't actually born there. His date of birth may not be correct, but it may be the date he believed he was born. His name would appear to be the least reliable information.
The forename Peter was fairly uncommon for the time, whist Harrison is much more common. Presumably this is the name he used when he joined the army in Dec 1903, but it seems it was not the name he was using in 1901 or before that.
Why did he change his name? He was 18 when he joined up so it wasn't because he needed to remain hidden if someone came looking for him. It could have been "because he wasn't wanted", but going by a completely new name seems quite drastic (many others must have had bad childhoods, but didn't change their names) Another reason could be that he was on the run from the police or some other authority.
Did he change both surname and forename or just one? Was the name he changed to significant in any way? I think we've probably looked at all the Peter's who were born in Rotherham around 1885!
There's a tree on Ancestry with 12000 people on it. It has PHH born 1886 in Street, Yorkshire. Has spouse Lily Cox and father Thomas Harrison, so it's the same PHH. Where is Street (other than in Somerset!)?
Oh, it has mother Annie Holmes. Does that mean it's the PHH born in York and who is the wrong person?
Margaret in Burton
13-09-19, 23:28
There's a tree on Ancestry with 12000 people on it. It has PHH born 1886 in Street, Yorkshire. Has spouse Lily Cox and father Thomas Harrison, so it's the same PHH. Where is Street (other than in Somerset!)?
Oh, it has mother Annie Holmes. Does that mean it's the PHH born in York and who is the wrong person?
That’s the wrong Peter Harrison. It’s the one I believed was him before the release of the 1911 census. That Peter Harrison was still in York then and ‘mine’ in Ashby de la Zouch
I believe from memory it was George St York, I have the birth cert, wrong one as it turned out
Margaret in Burton
13-09-19, 23:29
One thing is for sure, the facts he gives us himself, name, date of birth and place of birth cannot all be accurate. The question is, are any of these 'facts' correct and if any of them are, which ones?!
I feel there much be some definite connection to Rotherham, even if he wasn't actually born there. His date of birth may not be correct, but it may be the date he believed he was born. His name would appear to be the least reliable information.
The forename Peter was fairly uncommon for the time, whist Harrison is much more common. Presumably this is the name he used when he joined the army in Dec 1903, but it seems it was not the name he was using in 1901 or before that.
Why did he change his name? He was 18 when he joined up so it wasn't because he needed to remain hidden if someone came looking for him. It could have been "because he wasn't wanted", but going by a completely new name seems quite drastic (many others must have had bad childhoods, but didn't change their names) Another reason could be that he was on the run from the police or some other authority.
Did he change both surname and forename or just one? Was the name he changed to significant in any way? I think we've probably looked at all the Peter's who were born in Rotherham around 1885!
And that’s the summary of the mystery Merry
I also think I’ve checked out all of the male Harrison’s born in the Rotherham area around 1885
I also think I’ve checked out all of the male Harrison’s born in the Rotherham area around 1885
I agree. And people called Harris.
Plus those in the same regiment with army numbers 8000-8010 in case they were with a friend from Rotherham in 1901!
Yesterday I looked on FMP at all the Rotherham (and close by) baptisms for male children that have 22 July 1885 as the date of birth (not very many), but all those were accounted for in 1911. Of course there are plenty of baptisms that don't have a dob recorded. I probably should have looked at the 22 Jul 1884 and 1886 birth dates too, but I didn't.
I think I started looking at male children listed as pauper or inmate in 1891, but only if they were registered in Q3 1885 in Rotherham District. I think I stopped when some had very common names, so I wasn't sure when they were registered or if I was looking at the same person in 1911. Of course I should have made a list of the ones I did eliminate! :o:o:o
Margaret in Burton
14-09-19, 12:49
I agree. And people called Harris.
Plus those in the same regiment with army numbers 8000-8010 in case they were with a friend from Rotherham in 1901!
Yesterday I looked on FMP at all the Rotherham (and close by) baptisms for male children that have 22 July 1885 as the date of birth (not very many), but all those were accounted for in 1911. Of course there are plenty of baptisms that don't have a dob recorded. I probably should have looked at the 22 Jul 1884 and 1886 birth dates too, but I didn't.
I think I started looking at male children listed as pauper or inmate in 1891, but only if they were registered in Q3 1885 in Rotherham District. I think I stopped when some had very common names, so I wasn't sure when they were registered or if I was looking at the same person in 1911. Of course I should have made a list of the ones I did eliminate! :o:o:o
Covered his tracks well didn’t he. :mad::mad:
Margaret in Burton
14-09-19, 13:02
A thought;
Father in law told me that some people down the pit and in the local Working Men’s Club used to refer to him as ‘the little Italian’. Apparently he didn’t like this and denied it furiously. In fact father in law met an Italian girl when he was in Italy in WW2 and wanted to marry her and his father was livid and refused to have him home again if he did. The dutiful son did as he was told.
He obviously didn’t like Italians.
DNA results show me as 100% English, elder daughter 97% English and 3% Irish, younger daughter shows as 85% English, 5% Irish, 8% French and 2% Italian.
So, there’s for Foreign blood there somewhere and it’s not my side. Irish is possibly my mother in law as her Stanbridge’s from Oxfordshire was Catholic. I’ve not found an Irish link yet but the Catholic records for the area are sparse. OH Year’s ago went to the area and saw the priest and got very little. It’s pre census I’d need.
Was Peter Italian or part Italian, or even French?
Do you think he looked as if he came from one of those countries?
I can't see him divulging anything about his origins to his workmates, so they would have to have guessed, be they right or wrong.
Margaret in Burton
14-09-19, 14:28
Do you think he looked as if he came from one of those countries?
I can't see him divulging anything about his origins to his workmates, so they would have to have guessed, be they right or wrong.
I never met him of course and Dave was only 9 when he died.
I wouldn’t know what to look for to think he did look French or Italian
I’ll sort out some photos, I even think there may be a coloured one somewhere. Would it be ok to email them to you Merry when I do? I have your email address.
Margaret in Burton
14-09-19, 15:18
Of course!!
Thanks
Maybe you can work out how to put them on here. I've forgotten. Everyone on them is dead.
Be with you soon. :):)
Margaret in Burton
14-09-19, 15:22
Photos sent
maggie_4_7
14-09-19, 15:54
A thought;
Father in law told me that some people down the pit and in the local Working Men’s Club used to refer to him as ‘the little Italian’. Apparently he didn’t like this and denied it furiously. In fact father in law met an Italian girl when he was in Italy in WW2 and wanted to marry her and his father was livid and refused to have him home again if he did. The dutiful son did as he was told.
He obviously didn’t like Italians.
DNA results show me as 100% English, elder daughter 97% English and 3% Irish, younger daughter shows as 85% English, 5% Irish, 8% French and 2% Italian.
So, there’s for Foreign blood there somewhere and it’s not my side. Irish is possibly my mother in law as her Stanbridge’s from Oxfordshire was Catholic. I’ve not found an Irish link yet but the Catholic records for the area are sparse. OH Year’s ago went to the area and saw the priest and got very little. It’s pre census I’d need.
Was Peter Italian or part Italian, or even French?
Well the Muggins and the Wallaby mysteries were solved with a lot of hard work so there isn't any reason why Peter's can't be solved although he has left a few clues we don't know which ones are true.
In my experience there will be some nuggets of truth in there somewhere, the facts may be jumbled but the clues are in there somewhere because people can never shed all their life, they always keep and cling on to some of it.
I agree with Maggie.
Also, I can't really say exactly what would make someone look Italian or French other than dark hair and tanned complexion, but I expect the things we might think of may not be the same as what people might have imagined in the past. Where would they get their ideas from? We probably learned what a French or Italian man might look like from the TV when we were young, but what would they have to go on?
Having a go with the photos:
Earliest photo:
https://erjvvw.bl.files.1drv.com/y4mFi-Eq0CS8Tu4w8W8RX1FaN0eKZkfmUn03m409T3Cwqd0AtNIa31Ql ZsZqbvl9eZ7d_QWVRRdRVMdG-oUzYPkg1-VJ7W_nVbMgORqh8LC8ii6gxZ3Mr_B__DNTNY_qxmJRMcUNs7ks TzCrEjzJtZYqGsywqQQ7EZ6GH196SwJRiys8noRajh1cwqMO96 A7TyJAZW9_yunMUMDErvqgnDtvw?width=480&height=660&cropmode=none
Pit or WM club photo; Peter is 2nd from the right front row:
https://erjuvw.bl.files.1drv.com/y4mpy_2qjK4_LKWeVsyO14F3n3ccBFY7C8ZzDpEKGGtTOEi2JK Utt2daNBJdxB5Byfnkg-93Ku8k1D_ATpxrmd_PSe-8_-qd3VkyX0OzjJ_cOtKIJU1eYtgjkbU7HAVaSaG6pFjx7Zh2Akfl yKRLR-ATlce1YrTo9UCVqdEyG_U1LLqfJTetB9iglBx8h-H3GmtlDhDyCqWVbvSEzkuSTUhvA?width=660&height=480&cropmode=none
Prisoner of War
https://erjtvw.bl.files.1drv.com/y4mTAYMiH-atBik0WyTzJkAMyyO912r-rcyfOImLWrPfQS7uHTdSojamM4KiZvYpQQS8ls_PNRESHFf3wH HXWDJXIJjX6t2Dxnxw_lQfTCuVNUKC766Gn_Lxg2rtDJDxkK-I0Ag9cI44B-ffljfaXhBxcKPVecGL3PnHn9MKB_A0mRJ63q9rGHUN434Z3ihq TYTWXh_xttxHBcPaWOx6r5ZOg?width=480&height=660&cropmode=none
Son's wedding photo; Peter is the first man on the left back row, next to his son the groom:
https://erjavw.bl.files.1drv.com/y4mU2EvIK50ozfNW9zc7ksgmCQaIYn7xAQu9-AhnwV0bvE4MWzMgwhkyqD0K1V8tFE67fFM7HESWk3sGUjUo3JB 115CFr0LnPOmhovhEjky_4Pei-SLkUTaPsgxX1BJ0WxtSasULXn13DYLPcg3qKFpxb83bEBaaM01 0AH93dCmpqFnsWSIxIGfAqhL4Yo4LLkoQR5OrNrymxb4q0RzBi T3YQ?width=660&height=480&cropmode=none
With daughter and grandson:
https://erjzvw.bl.files.1drv.com/y4mpvKMGO2s4kNu9J_d0z3XNACrOV-w5n4rma0Sn26rsq6CavCZyhP4dRE4tfMYJ2VuEGDXKnEfJR008 ij4pTJOSuR0_6p3jJvpYLNfR9VTtQe11fPAdxOFg9JlppxgWVd Qj94EI1f7NUi0AtiFcaI_5QOQb1Gzah2MngT2GeLbsnQiKPiUO IOmLonWJ-Zzci2VwrWXcWs44hUz538wq1ss_Q?width=660&height=480&cropmode=none
With Lily (1958-1960):
https://erjyvw.bl.files.1drv.com/y4mx8TJ3XYG0kqURjnC-pCrCgyTadMUFAx9AOuuwo1OsIKnvU51BNDD9o-u6BTOd_GkqkON8PljtI9JdS1QkueGXixNK7KuJMvV-tOJWfIe9zjMd31xwdMj02iOfPf1V7ANZwae7giQ_FPjFOZ0goO TwE857orcyWSrHC2xiQDRoRcEgEi4pJgyE4Ytwn5jDaUgWSUmy mUaVSeCKJ55ehDL4g?width=480&height=660&cropmode=none
Margaret in Burton
14-09-19, 16:35
Well the Muggins and the Wallaby mysteries were solved with a lot of hard work so there isn't any reason why Peter's can't be solved although he has left a few clues we don't know which ones are true.
In my experience there will be some nuggets of truth in there somewhere, the facts may be jumbled but the clues are in there somewhere because people can never shed all their life, they always keep and cling on to some of it.
Well it’s foxed me for a long time. He fooled us with saying his father was Thomas Harrison on his marriage cert. Followed that chap in York, bought certs, went back to Ireland. Told my father in law and his brothers they were of of Irish decent. I recall we placed an ad in a York newspaper asking for any information on him, someone wrote to me saying she knew him and things she said started to make me have doubts I’d got the right man. Then the 1911 census came out and my suspicions were confirmed. The man I was following was still in York.
I never did tell my father in law of the error. His brothers died before I’d discovered the mistake.
Margaret in Burton
14-09-19, 16:37
Thanks for putting the photos on Merry
His father may have been Thomas or may have been Harrison or may have been Thomas Harrison!
Have your daughters got any shared DNA with people who have the word Rotherham in their tree?!! (and where you are not also related)
Margaret in Burton
14-09-19, 17:20
His father may have been Thomas or may have been Harrison or may have been Thomas Harrison!
Have your daughters got any shared DNA with people who have the word Rotherham in their tree?!! (and where you are not also related)
Don’t think so but I will recheck
Margaret in Burton
14-09-19, 17:23
I did message a supposed 3rd or 4th cousin who didn’t have a tree to look at. No reply
I can't remember much about PHH. Why are you sure he was born 1885? I think I'd ask the workhouse to search from 1880.
As for the Italian descent there must be something as your daughters have that 2%. My husband, however, is often asked if he is Greek or similar and there is not one drop on non UK blood in him. He just tans well. So PHH may be unaware of the relationship, or it was quite distant. Or another thought, there may be illegitimacy with an Italian the culprit.
PS: I, too, was hoping for a break through.
PPS: Is it possible he was related to his wife? This would make the DNA harder to work out.
Margaret in Burton
15-09-19, 07:57
I can't remember much about PHH. Why are you sure he was born 1885? I think I'd ask the workhouse to search from 1880.
As for the Italian descent there must be something as your daughters have that 2%. My husband, however, is often asked if he is Greek or similar and there is not one drop on non UK blood in him. He just tans well. So PHH may be unaware of the relationship, or it was quite distant. Or another thought, there may be illegitimacy with an Italian the culprit.
PS: I, too, was hoping for a break through.
PPS: Is it possible he was related to his wife? This would make the DNA harder to work out.
1885 has been consistent as a year of birth. That’s one thing he was consistent about. Marriage cert, death cert, army record,1911 census, 1939 register all give a year of birth of 1885. Even if he had been born earlier there would have been some mention of him in the workhouse records, discharge for example.
Rotherham record office only hold workhouse birth records from 1848 to 1879 then 1912 to 1938. What they did search was the religious creed register. That gives name, when admitted and discharge as well as religious creed.
Relationship to his wife? No, highly unlikely. She was Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire born and bred. I have all sides of her family well researched.
Peter was discharged from the army in Ponterfract, Yorkshire and was walking to London to start a new life and he got to Ashby he met Lily and stayed there.
I think it's most likely he changed his name between 1901 and 1903, probably as soon as he left home. I think before that he is hidden in plain sight and may have never been in an institution.
I think he knew the people who didn't want him very well, rather than being a foundling, or whatever.
I wonder why he changed his name though? I doubt anyone from his family was going to look for him.
Margaret in Burton
15-09-19, 10:15
I think it's most likely he changed his name between 1901 and 1903, probably as soon as he left home. I think before that he is hidden in plain sight and may have never been in an institution.
I think he knew the people who didn't want him very well, rather than being a foundling, or whatever.
I wonder why he changed his name though? I doubt anyone from his family was going to look for him.
AN thought that perhaps he’d been in trouble with the police.
Yes, that's very possible.
OH used to think his GF had changed his name because he hated his father (GF said awful things about his father, whose name he would never divulge) and wanted to escape the family home. Turned out GF never knew his father or the man he may have thought was his father. He didn't have a male role model at all.
He changed his name (not his date or place of birth though) because he was in trouble with the army and the police. His was aged 15/16 when he reinvented himself. His new name had no apparent connection/similarity to his old name and we don't know how he chose it.
Margaret in Burton
15-09-19, 11:22
Yes, that's very possible.
OH used to think his GF had changed his name because he hated his father (GF said awful things about his father, whose name he would never divulge) and wanted to escape the family home. Turned out GF never knew his father or the man he may have thought was his father. He didn't have a male role model at all.
He changed his name (not his date or place of birth though) because he was in trouble with the army and the police. His was aged 15/16 when he reinvented himself. His new name had no apparent connection/similarity to his old name and we don't know how he chose it.
That scenario sounds very probable for PHH. How did you work it all out?
After OH's GF had changed his name and married, he was still a bit of a naughty boy! He was involved in several petty crimes which were reported in the newspaper. One report quoted his address, but not where he was living with his wife in Southampton, but an address in Cork near where he was born (I think he hoped his wife wouldn't find out what he had been up to!). This address appeared in the army record of a boy soldier who we had shortlisted as being born in the right place and date. I had originally excluded this boy soldier as I thought I had found his death with the same name, but it turned out that was a different individual. Once we knew both names had a link to the same address, everything unravelled very quickly.
As with so many brick walls, it only seems to take one chink for the whole thing to come crashing down. Just with PHH we haven't found the chink!
Then there's the chance of a DNA match to consider....
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