View Full Version : John W or Joseph Wilson Boyle
I have norrowed down what I belive :)to be my great grandfathers family (my ggfather being John Wesley who married Adelaide Sacht) in Runcorn as follows:
BOYLE Robert Wilson 1877 Runcorn
BOYLE Jane Isabella 1878 Runcorn
BOYLE John Wesley 1880 Runcorn
BOYLE Joseph Wilson 1884 Runcorn
BOYLE Wilson 1891 Runcorn
However their fathers name appears Joseph Wilson Boyle born 1846 Ireland in all other records I can trace -except the 1881 census - it reflects JOHN W.:confused: Further to this, the birth records for Joseph Wilson that I can look at for this period (may not be accurate as I have not subscribed) only show a Johnston Boyle born 1846- Joseph Wilson being born 1849 (Same parents). According to my mom, the John Wesley b Runcorn's grandfather was Robert.
Am I on the right track or have I gone astray, without seeing John Wesley's birth certificate it is difficult to say - the local Post Office in South Africa are not of much assistance in getting IRCs (Actually I also have no clue:() to send off the request for a copy.
Any direction on where I should go from here would be appreciated.
kiterunner
20-07-11, 18:53
Can't you order it (John Wesley's birth cert) online from the GRO using a credit or debit card, Wendy? Or don't you have one?
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
kiterunner
20-07-11, 19:00
Just realised I should ask - do you have John Wesley's marriage certificate, and if so, what is his father's name on there? If you don't have it then you should get that as well as or before his birth cert.
kiterunner
20-07-11, 19:03
Ah, I see the marriage is on ancestry in the Liverpool Marriages and Banns, with his father's name given as Joseph Wilson Boyle, ship's carpenter.
kiterunner
20-07-11, 19:08
And his baptism is on FamilySearch (a free site) - John Wesley Boyle baptised at Halton Road Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Runcorn, Cheshire, 2 Sep 1880, parents Joseph Wilson Boyle and Margaret Boyle. So that confirms his father was Joseph Wilson Boyle anyway, without you getting his birth certificate.
I don't think Joseph Wilson Boyle can have used his middle name when he married Margaret, so you will definitely need to obtain John Wesley's birth cert to establish her maiden surname so that you can trace their marriage.
Births Sep 1880
BOYLE John Wesley Runcorn 8a 227
kiterunner
20-07-11, 19:14
I was hoping that Joseph Wilson Boyle's marriage cert would also be on ancestry in the Liverpool marriages, as we could then view the actual image of it, but I can't see it on there. However, there is a transcription on FamilySearch:
2 Sep 1876 at Liverpool, Joseph Wilson Boyle age 30, single, married Margaret Wilson age 22, single, his father Robert Boyle, her father Wm (=William) Wilson.
(edit - sorry, Merry! It is listed on FreeBMD with his middle name)
So it looks as though his father was called Robert, although of course the transcription or the certificate itself could be wrong. I'm not clear from reading your post what the father's name is for the Joseph Wilson born 1849?
edit - sorry, Merry! It is listed on FreeBMD with his middle name
I must have some sort of iinvisible typo as it's coming up now. Sorry.
Maybe they are related??!!!
I don't have a problem with requesting the cert for John Wesley, but the problem is it cannot be requested on-line - at least not from the page I have been into i.e Chesire BMD, I would have to request it via postal service which as I said earlier is rather a feat especially since I do not understand what an IRC is and trying to explain it is another thing. I have also ascertained that there was a marriage of a Joseph Wilson to a Margaret and that follows through on all the children - there are another 2 after the 1881 census being a Joseph Wilson (by the way in Adelaide's househould - 1911 census, cannot get back to that record) and a Wilson - died I presume at birth based on records from Runcorn - Jane also died at age 6, and I believe I have traced Robert the brother until his death - but that was being side tracked trying to focus on the direct lines now.
Sorry forgot to add both Johnstone and Joseph have the same parents as per my lookups
Wendy, if you have a credit or debit card you can order the cert from the GRO (General Register Office) via the link Kite posted in #2
Thanks for link to order cert have ordered it at a cost of 15 loaves of bread LOL (worth it if I get the info) and will be despatched to myself mid August.................cant't find the frowny face!!
lol you must have cheap bread!!
No comment - best ledt to another forum - I have two growing boys
Sorry forgot to add both Johnstone and Joseph have the same parents as per my lookups
Which site did you find those on?
familysearch.org:
Johnston Boyle: b Clones 1846 Parents Robert and Rebecca
Joseph Wilson Boyle b 1849 Clones Parents Robert and Rebecca
Sorry do not know how to "dump" the files/screen prints
kiterunner
20-07-11, 22:10
I can see Johnston o.k. on FamilySearch, but the Joseph I can see is just listed as Joseph Boyle. Do you have any other reason to think that your Joseph Wilson Boyle came from Clones? (For instance, family stories, etc) There are a lot of Irish records which haven't survived, as you probably know.
Abosultely no idea if he actually came from Clones, was just working on the Joseph's father beimg Robert and could not find any other records of a Jospeh from my searches. This the part that has bcome frustrating!
kiterunner
20-07-11, 22:35
There could well be other Joseph Boyles with a father called Robert who aren't listed on FamilySearch, though. And if your Joseph Wilson Boyle was born a Methodist it could be particularly difficult to find records:
http://www.irishmethodist.org/about/genealogy.php
If you get a copy of Joseph Wilson Boyle's marriage certificate it should tell you what Robert's occupation was, which might help. Also it will give you the names of the witnesses who may or may not be relatives. Plus it will help with tracing Margaret's family back. And as Merry said, it is possible that the two families might be connected, what with Joseph's middle name being Wilson.
Thought the "wlson" connection was weird. I'll have to wait to receive the copy of John's birth certificate I suppose before I go any furher on the Boyles.
By the way did get get in contact with the one of the Runcorn's brothers' son (he confirmed Adelaide Sacht as his grandmother i.e John Wesley of Runcorn b 1820's wife) however not too much info availailable fron him - have not pushed too hard as he is 74, ironic though that his father was also Joseph Wilson Boyle who married Jessie May, Grand Father John Wesley was also confirmed (just wish I could clarify the names John vs Joseph for myself - ....................Patience I suppose)
Sorry not Runcorn son - John and Adelaides son!!! John Wilson b Garston - too confused here
Herewith for info if you wish to see what I have recorded to date, the link on myheritage (http://www.myheritage.com/site-156862331/boyle) for the Boyle family that I'm actually trying to clarify as 1st priority, the rest keep me busy while I wait, as I have a SA father and SA husband and actually a SA family that I am very proud of.
I'll have to wait to receive the copy of John's birth certificate I suppose before I go any furher on the Boyles.
Well, you could also order the Boyle/Wilson marriage cert.
By the way did get get in contact with the one of the Runcorn's brothers' son (he confirmed Adelaide Sacht as his grandmother i.e John Wesley of Runcorn b 1820's wife) however not too much info availailable fron him - have not pushed too hard as he is 74, ironic though that his father was also Joseph Wilson Boyle who married Jessie May, Grand Father John Wesley was also confirmed (just wish I could clarify the names John vs Joseph for myself - ....................Patience I suppose)
I'm not sure which part you don't feel you have clarified? Do you have all the census records for the family (from 1881 onwards, anyway?) is it only the 1881 census which has the wrng forename? Probably just a transcription error by the enumerator when he copied the details from the householders schedule to the census folio.
I have seen Margaret Wilson on the 1861 census with her parents, neither of whom were from Ireland.
garstonite
21-07-11, 07:19
Hiya Wendy...sorry I haven`t posted , but I have been in Pontins with grandkids since Saturday....in case anyone is wondering Wendys ancestor Adelaide Sacht was the sister of my gg grandmother Sophia Sacht....now I know it is typical family rumour...but we were told as kids that the owner of Starways Airline based in Liverpool was a Wilson...and was somehow related...so your Wilson family member may be where they came into the family...I think they also owned another big company here in Garston...I will text my elder brother and see if he can remember...now to see if Wilson did own Starways...I can check for real with internet....back soon...
allan
added ...well the Wilson / Starways was true
http://starways.com/history.htm
garstonite
21-07-11, 07:47
Famous Army Stars was the other company owned by the Wilson family , the warehouse was named Limecoat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famous_Army_Stores my brother has just informed me it was owned by Tony Wilson and his daughter Geraldine
...Wilson the grandad / g grandfather ,built a Hall for OAP`s earlier on in Garston and of a night it was used to make money for the Hall with the likes of The Beatles playing there....
http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1950s/57.00.XX%20wilson%20hall%20%20-%20ringo/50.00.XXwilsonhall-ringo.html
allan
I'm just noting this down in case it should prove any use later (a rather long shot!!)
Should you get the Boyle/Wilson marriage cert and Joseph's father turns out to be Robert Boyle, a shoemaker......(so if he isn't a shoemaker, then probably forget about this....)
In 1861 there's a family comprising of
Robert Boyle head married 48 shoemaker b Tyrone, Ireland
Eliza Boyle wife married 44 b Ireland (could also be Tyrone, depending on how much the ditto is ditto-ing!)
Joseph Boyle son 15 joiners apprentice b Belfast, Ireland
Robert Boyle son 11 errand boy b Belfast, Ireland
Anne Morgan lodger widow 69 b Edinburgh
The occ for Joseph is difficult to read. apart from the J it actually looks more like turners apprentice than joiners apprentice, but looking at other writing on the page I think joiner is possibly more likely. Obviously it would be better if this youngman was a shipwrights apprentice! lol
Their address is 61 Collins Street, Toxteth Park
Moving to 1871 I have not been able to find either of the sons from the above, but neither have I found obvious death for them, so I looked for the parents in any case:
At the same address as in 1861 we have the following with quite different ages, but keep reading! lol
Robert Boyle head married 71 shoemaker b Ireland
Elizabeth Boyle wife married 51 b Ireland
Emma Roberts boarder married 40 b London
and in 1881, same address again:
Robert Boyle head married 81 shoemaker b Ireland
Eliza Boyle wife married 61 b Ireland
Strangely, at death Robert seems to have reverted to his 1861 year of birth.
Name: Robert Boyle
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1814
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1886
Age at Death: 72
Registration district: Toxteth Park
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 185
Name: Eliza Boyle
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1888
Age at Death: 67
Registration district: Toxteth Park
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 130
garstonite
21-07-11, 09:25
Merry...Collins Street is about 4 /5 miles away, so very feasible....I am getting Deja Vu here...have we gone over this before ?
allan
I don't know. I hope not :(
I'm filling time whilst waiting to take son to the supermarket. It's the first day of his school holiday and he hasn't woken up yet!! I'm usually back by now!
Well, you could also order the Boyle/Wilson marriage cert.
I'm not sure which part you don't feel you have clarified? Do you have all the census records for the family (from 1881 onwards, anyway?) is it only the 1881 census which has the wrng forename? Probably just a transcription error by the enumerator when he copied the details from the householders schedule to the census folio.
I have seen Margaret Wilson on the 1861 census with her parents, neither of whom were from Ireland.
Merry, I have now ordered the Boyle/Wilson marriage cert. so will wait for that as well. I am happy with records I have so far, was actually referring to the fact that I have to wait for the certificates to continue going back i.e. who was Joseph's mother and father. In the mean time keeping mtself busy with updating local family.
kiterunner
22-07-11, 17:13
The certificates won't tell you who Joseph's mother was, but the marriage certificate should tell you what his father's occupation was (if it isn't one of those annoying ones that just says "deceased").
The Boyle/Wilson Marriage certificate arrived today - Merry it appears you were correct! Groom's father is Robert - Shoemaker
Bride's father is William - Railway Labourer
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.