View Full Version : when and how did joseph wilson die?
hi evryone,i have another undiogosed problem in myfamily history with my great grandfather joseph wilson we know very little about him apart from he married clara elizabeth webster who was from worksop in 1907 in sheffield and lived and settled in worksop.he lived at 114 lincoln street at one point. he hadd 4 children clarice.edward ,doris, betty.he worked as rodeman in mines in 1920.and the rumour was he died in his early 40s.he wass also abear nuckle fighter.cant find himany cencus yet and his fathe was ajoseph wilson.thanks
clara was born 1887.worksop,notts.
kiterunner
13-07-11, 15:59
I think Joseph is listed as "Jas" on the 1911 census website, in Rotherham district:
Jas Wilson 30
Clara Wilson 24 born Worksop
Edward Wilson 1
Clara Stanniland 41
Clara Stanniland 5
Neither "Jas" nor Clara Stanniland is head of household, according to the index search, so I can't find them on ancestry yet.
kiterunner
13-07-11, 16:02
There is a Doris Webster age 5 in the household too... will post full transcript when I have found it.
ElizabethHerts
13-07-11, 16:03
This could be them in 1911.
STANNILAND, Reu Head Married M 46 1865 Coal Miner Hewer Worksop Notts
STANNILAND, Clara Wife Married 22 years F 41 1870 Worksop Notts VIEW
STANNILAND, William Son Single M 21 1890 Coal Minr Filler Worksop Notts VIEW
STANNILAND, John Son Single M 16 1895 Pony Driver Coal Miner Worksop Notts VIEW
STANNILAND, Reu Son Single M 13 1898 School Worksop Notts VIEW
STANNILAND, Hilda Daughter F 11 1900 School Worksop Notts
STANNILAND, Bernard Son M 9 1902 School Worksop Notts
STANNILAND, Lilly Daughter F 7 1904 School Worksop Notts
STANNILAND, Clara Daughter F 5 1906 School Worksop Notts
STANNILAND, Arthur Son M 3 1908 Worksop Notts
STANNILAND, Beatriece Daughter F 0 (6 MONTHS) 1911 Worksop Notts
WILSON, Jas Relative Married 4 years M 30 1881 Coal Miner Hewer Worksop Notts
WILSON, Clara Relative Married 4 years F 24 1887 Worksop Notts
WEBSTER, Doris Relative Single F 5 1906 School Worksop Notts
WILSON, Edward Relative M 1 1910 Worksop Notts
1911 Census
WILSON, Jas
ROTHERHAM, Yorkshire (West riding)
Reference RG14PN28039 RG78PN1602 RD511 SD1 ED3 SN207
ElizabethHerts
13-07-11, 16:03
You beat me to it, Kiterunner!
Yes, I think that Jas is Jos - or Joseph.
kiterunner
13-07-11, 16:13
Okay, so ignoring the Stannilands just for now (but "Reu" should be "Ben"), this is what it says on the image (address 3 Falconer Lane, Fence, civil parish Aston with Aughton), sorry, not sure of the two children's birthplaces.
Jos Wilson Relative 30 Married 4 years Coal Miner (Hewer) born Worksop
Clara Wilson Relative 24 Married 4 years 2 children born Worksop
Doris Webster Relative 5 School born Worksop (or somewhere beginning with W, it's a scrawl!)
Edward Wilson Relative 1 born - again, somewhere beginning with W but very scrawled
Just for the record, Benjamin married a Clara Webster:
Name: STANNILAND, Benjamin
Registration District: Help Worksop
County: Nottinghamshire
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume No: Help 7B
Page No: Help 53
ElizabethHerts
13-07-11, 16:22
1901 - Clara Elizabeth Webster
1901 Census
WEBSTER, Clara Elizth
WORKSOP, Nottinghamshire
RG13 piece 3124 folio 98 page 15
WEBSTER, John Head Married M 34 1867 Coal Miner (Hewer) Worksop Nottinghamshire
WEBSTER, Elizabeth Wife Married F 38 1863 Leamington Warwickshire
WEBSTER, John Wm Son Single M 17 1884 Carter's Labourer Worksop Nottinghamshire
WEBSTER, Clara Elizth Daughter Single F 14 1887 Worksop Nottinghamshire
WEBSTER, Edward Son Single M 10 1891 Worksop Nottinghamshire
WEBSTER, Charles Luke Son Single M 9 1892 Worksop Nottinghamshire
WEBSTER, Joseph Son Single M 4 1897 Worksop Nottinghamshire
kiterunner
13-07-11, 16:30
There is a Joseph Wilson born 1913 Worksop, mother's maiden name Webster, and a death for Joseph Wilson in 1915 age 1. Could be a child of Joseph and Clara?
The other two children you mentioned were born in 1922 and 1924 - can you please confirm that either they are no longer living or that they have agreed it is o.k. for you to post information about them on here?
Then a possible death for Joseph Wilson - Jan-Mar 1935 Worksop age 56. If his age on the 1911 census is accurate then he was born about 1880 so the age on this would be close. Another possible is Jul-Sep 1936 Worksop age 51 and then there is one Oct-Dec 1942 Worksop age 70 but the ages on those aren't so close. Of course, if he died in another district there are too many possibles!
But none of those is early 40's.
Breckland Jane
13-07-11, 16:33
Possible death registration for Joseph.
WILSON, Joseph
Registration District: Help Worksop
County: Nottinghamshire
1935 Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 56
Volume No: 7B
Page No: 30
ElizabethHerts
13-07-11, 16:35
Zoe, do you have the marriage certificate of Joseph Wilson and Clara Elizabeth Webster?
It would be interesting to see what their ages were (infuriating if it says "of full age").
kiterunner
13-07-11, 16:36
The one who died in 1936 looks unlikely to be your Joseph, because he's listed on the National Probate Calendar with widow Sarah Ann.
the age on the marriage certificate says joseph was 5 year older than clara. he did die in worksop,but dont know when ?just he died early fortys family rumour.
kiterunner
13-07-11, 16:47
Joseph's army service papers are on ancestry, in the "Pension Records" section - you should be able to view them the next time you use the library computer, Zoe. Search British Army WW1 Pension Records 1914-1920 for Joseph Wilson born 1879 at Whitwell and he should come up. It gives the date of his marriage to Clara Elizabeth Webster as 21 May 1907 at St John's Sheffield, witnesses Wm(?) Fisher and Henry Young. Two children are listed - Edward Albert born 12 May 1910 Worksop and Joseph born 3 Mar 1913 Worksop. Next of kin wife Clara of 22 Aldred St, Worksop, and brother George of Whitwell, Mansfield, Notts. This was in 1914. The reason for Doris not being listed could be because she was born before they got married, or perhaps Joseph wasn't her father?
Age given as 35 on enlistment in Sep 1914.
kiterunner
13-07-11, 16:50
I think he's probably the one who died in 1935 but there are so many Joseph Wilsons you would need something more to be sure it was him such as the death certificate, or a burial register entry giving an address that you know he lived at.
thanks,only birth i know for children is my grandmother clarice wilson born approx 1920.do you think they had a break having kids because of the war?
kiterunner
13-07-11, 16:53
Bother, I thought I'd found Joseph Wilson on the 1881 census age 2, born Derbyshire Whitwell, and living in Whitwell, but his father is George and you said his father was Joseph? There is a brother George, which fits with the next of kin on Joseph's army papers, though. :confused:
Here are the likely births of the other two children (a lot later than the first two, so maybe WW1 was a partial interruption?). I say likely as there are a lot of Wilson/Webster births.
Info deleted as no confirmation received that children are now dec'd.
Here is the other child from the army record:
Births Jun 1913
Wilson Joseph Webster Worksop 7b 38
Deaths Mar 1915
Wilson Joseph 1 Worksop 7b 36
I can't see an early death for Joseph (b 1881ish) in Worksop though Clara died there
Name: Clara E Wilson
Birth Date: abt 1888
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1961
Age at Death: 73
Registration district: Worksop
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 3c
Page: 696
Do you have the occupation of Joseph's father please?
i thought it might be a long shot with a name as popular as that. i do the one address 114 lincoln street. worksop,.
Sorry, my last post may be out of sequence as i forgot to actually post it and it sat on my computer for half an hour!!
kiterunner
13-07-11, 16:56
do you think they had a break having kids because of the war?
Very likely.
I don't think you've answered this question yet that I asked earlier:
The other two children you mentioned were born in 1922 and 1924 - can you please confirm that either they are no longer living or that they have agreed it is o.k. for you to post information about them on here?
That is, the other two children apart from Edward and Doris who we know were born before the 1911 census so we're o.k. with posting up their details, but our site policy is not to post up details about people who could still be living without their permission.
that whitwell,conncetion sounds positive
That is, the other two children apart from Edward and Doris who we know were born before the 1911 census so we're o.k. with posting up their details, but our site policy is not to post up details about people who could still be living without their permission.
Sorry, I missunderstood, and assumed they were both dec'd. (shouldn't do lookups and cook dinner at the same time!)
sorrry i meant laborer his fathers,josepsh jrns jobslaborerer,road man miner.
Bother, I thought I'd found Joseph Wilson on the 1881 census age 2, born Derbyshire Whitwell, and living in Whitwell, but his father is George and you said his father was Joseph? There is a brother George, which fits with the next of kin on Joseph's army papers, though. :confused:
Should have read this post before! lol That's what I found too.
sorrry i meant laborer his fathers,josepsh jrns jobslaborerer,road man miner.
Thanks. Kate asked you if the two younger children are dec'd?
does it say where he fought in the war? and does it have an address for him in 1911?
The 1911 address is 3 Falconer Lane Fence Sheffield
Are the last two children dec'd??????
Post 19 amended until confirmation received.
kiterunner
13-07-11, 17:22
I already gave you the 1911 address in post #7 - 3 Falconer Lane, Fence.
I don't think he actually fought in the war as he joined up in Sep 1914 and he was discharged as medically unfit in Nov 1914. He was in the Sherwood Foresters 12th Battalion. Service no 6549. It only shows him serving at "Home" (i.e. in England) on the papers as far as I can see. He only had 66 days' service so I would think that was all training.
I can't instantly see a WW1 medal card for him which would be right if he didn't serve abroad.
this is very intruging information.thanks
Do you need those birth reg's for your grandmother or her sister? I can reinstate the info if you can confirm they are both dec'd. Or do you have the birth certs anyway?
thanks i have a bith certificate for my grandmother but not for her sisiter.absultley brilliant work by you guys again
that whitwell,conncetion sounds positive
But are you 100% sure Joseph's father is Joseph on the 1907 marriage cert?
he lived at 114 lincoln street at one point.
When was the one point?
it was 1930s sorry.when my grandmother was born on birht cert.it sats address where bon 3 garter row,newgate street,worksop
it looks like 3 garden row on the certificate now but my reading not the best but is on newgate strret worksop,sorry couldnt be of more help
kiterunner
13-07-11, 19:08
Yes, there was a Garden Row in Worksop so that would be right.
his father was george wilson,just dug out marraige certifcate.is theres any way of you guys finding when he died thanks.
kiterunner
14-07-11, 17:42
Do you mean when George died? Or Joseph?
ElizabethHerts
14-07-11, 17:58
This is a possibility:
Civil Registration event: Death
Name: WILSON, George
Registration District: Worksop
County: Nottinghamshire
Year of Registration: 1897
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at death: 56
Volume No: 7B
Page No: 31
The age fits.
kiterunner
14-07-11, 18:30
That death is listed on findmypast in the "parish records" section as place - Carburton & Clowne. I don't know whether that means he was buried there or if it is a civil death registration and that is the sub-district, because I haven't got a sub to look at the actual entry.
kiterunner
14-07-11, 18:31
And there is a death or burial on there for Emma Wilson in 1896, age 53, also Carburton & Clowne, who could be Joseph's mother.
thanks for those two,that is great.is there any way of finding a death for joseph himself,givn the addreses weve found.thanks
I think there have been two or three possible death registrations posted up on this thread already. It may not be practical to buy the certs one at a time to see if any of them are the right one and if he did move house you might find it difficult to know if you are looking at the right cert at all. Also if he was out for the day when he died or staying away from home or in a distant hospital then the cert may not be under Worksop district al all.
Another option might be to get Clara's death cert if you don't already have it (the registration details are in this thread) and then try contacting the cemetery office for Worksop. If she was buried in the cemetery then you may be lucky and find she is in the same grave as Joseph, which would obviously give you a burial date for him and you can then get his cert to see what happened to him.
Re Joseph see posts #10 #13 #16
re Clara see post #19
hi thanks for your help ive tried find my past.com but no luck finding a death.my joseph wilson died mid fortys and all of the ones posted on here are mid too late 50s.it would have 1920 to 1925 when he was mid fortys is there any potential deaths of that time in worksop.and does it not say widows name on the death index.sorry to be a pain but would like to try to solve this if possible?
He can't have died as early as 1920 as he had two children after that!! (That's why I asked you if you had your grandmother's birth cert, as you wouldn't be able to tell from the index entry if there was no father's name recorded.) There were no other likely deaths in Worksop.
If you don't feel any of those deaths is him then your next option is to either go via the burial of his wife as I've already suggested, or as you have an address for him and his wife in 1922 contect the library in Worksop and see if you can persuade them to check the electoral rolls for the address and see when he disappeared.
does it not say widows name on the death index
No, it doesn't. It may not even mention the widow on the death certificate.
ok,thanks, i will try the worksop libarry next week.
I have just done a search of the GRO indexes for Joseph Wilson b 1880 +/-2 years dying 1925 +/- 2 years and there are ten matches. Five of those matches have middle names making them perhaps less likely. The other five are in the following districts:
Warwick
Walsall
Gateshead
Liverpool
Fylde
thanks for your help.ive found josephs war records on the library ancestrory edition. and it says on one of his questionaires that he served time in jail for assault .perhaps this might explain why the 10 year gap between children. could you possible find out what jail he was in and how long for ? thanks
I can't see how that can explain the gap as he signed that form in Sept 1914, so the term in prison for assault would obviously be before that.
I don't see how we can know when or where he was in jail, except that he wasn't in jail on any census.
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.