View Full Version : William Hairyes marriage or birth?
Hi everyone,im new to this forum and i apoligize for any mistakes .In the course of researching my family i have came to a dead end William Hairyes Srn,the only information i have is that he was buired on June 13th 1840 in Rothwell,Leeds at the Holy Trinity Chuch he was 40 years old. He has a son William Hairyes jrn.who had 4 wives May Ann Hairyes ,Hannah Tiplin Elizabeth Hogg, Mary Ann Hoys.William had 10 children Henry John,Hannah,Mary,George,Samuel and another William,James,Ellvery,and Emily Hogg(stepdaughter.)In the 1851 cencus name spelt haryes he was living in Kirby Malzheard,near Ripon, in 1861 correct spelling he was living in Harrogate,in 1871 cenucus he was in Knasbourgh and in 1881 he was living in holbeck Leeds and he died in april 1890 in Bramley,Leeds. Unfortunatley he has put 4 different birth places- on the ocean in 1881 Scotland in 1871 ,Balk in 1861 and born in Thaw Parish in 1851. on the marriage certifcates he has fathers name william hairyes fathers profession lawer and agg lab which william jrn was too.can someone help me sort out this mess? thanks
kiterunner
30-06-11, 15:22
Hmmm, the 1840 burial is transcribed as Hairyes on ancestry (in the West Yorkshire deaths and burials) but I would say it is Stringer on the actual image; any other opinions please?
Update - there is a William Stringer death on the GRO indexes Jun 1840 Leeds and a William Stringer death in 1840 in Rothwell on Yorkshire BMD, so I think that burial is William Stringer and not your William Hairyes senior, sorry!
William jr's birthplace on the 1851 census actually says Thirsk parish, if that's any help, probably not going to help much as he seems to have made up a new birth place for every census!
I am abslutley gutted! i thought things were moving foward there! I dont suppose with flimsy evidence i have you could help me find williams wife or william srn? thanks .
kiterunner
30-06-11, 15:59
Do you have any details of William jr's first marriage? (The first one, to Mary Ann.)
also if someone can help me find a birth for William jrn?. ive tried at sea,Scotland,Balk but i havent tried thirsk yet.
Williams first marriage is marriages dec 1847 .It has william hairyes spelt hares.Ripon 23 571.
garstonite
30-06-11, 16:22
yorkshirebmd has it as
William Hares to Mary A Richmond 1847 Ripon Register office or Registrar attended ... Harrogate RORIP/1/134
allan
thanks for that i know im chanching my luck can anyone find me a mother for william jrn or his father !
kiterunner
30-06-11, 16:36
So do you have a copy of the 1847 marriage certificate? It might have some useful information on it.
kiterunner
30-06-11, 16:38
Sorry, I forgot what I was thinking - I know it says his father was a Lawyer on the marriage cert when he married Mary Ann Hoys, but I'm wondering whether it is supposed to say Sawyer, and if we had details from the other marriage certificates it might help with that.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 16:50
For reference (to save duplicated efforts):
http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/90999-Birth-origin-and-father-of-William-Hairyes
thanks i havent got 1847 marriage certificate but it states fathers ag.labourer on the 2 ceritficates i have.ive been trying a couple of sites and theve been really helpful but still no one has had any luck finding william srn or his wife,i appreciate your effots.
Zoe, maybe you need to review the information you have posted here, following your long thread on Family Tree Forum. Sadly I cannot re-access that thread now I've looked at it once, as I am not a member of that forum.
i know william srn worked as a lawyer but it may have been a spelling error,and farm laborer .but as i stated earlier the family tree forum could not locate william snr or his wife ,they helpful in other ways,,i apoligise if ihavent remmbered all of the information in my original request here,i also didnt think id get a reply if my request was too large. it was in desperation having the failure family tree forum to locate william srn that i came here. do you think you can still try and look for him please or a wife,thanks
kiterunner
30-06-11, 17:46
It seems unlikely he would be a lawyer as well as farm labourer, more likely it was supposed to say Sawyer. If you can get a copy of the first marriage certificate, there will be witnesses' names and it is more likely that the witnesses at that first marriage might be William's relatives (or at least one of them) which might help us to look for the right family for him.
thanks, i didnt realize relatives were wittness, but overall it seams im exactly the same postion i was before. can you check the baptismans for william jrn in thirsk parish for me? i have no idea how to do it myself,then if theres no william there i will puchase another marraige certificate.
Witnesses can be anyone, but are often relatives.
Parish register records for Thirsk for the period you need are held at the North Yorkshire County Record Office.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 18:39
Zoe, maybe you need to review the information you have posted here, following your long thread on Family Tree Forum. Sadly I cannot re-access that thread now I've looked at it once, as I am not a member of that forum.
Sorry, I didn't realise that - I assumed that non-members could view but not post.
Let me know if you want me to re-post anything.
Some of the marriages and baptisms are in the new W. Yorks records on Ancestry (with images).
The main problem is that we can't find a baptism for William born c. 1831. My guess is that he was baptised in the Balk area, although for some reason he gives Scotland and "at sea" as his birthplace in later censuses.
However, there appears to be no church in Balk, and the baptisms for Thirsk, Kirby Knowle and Bagby, which are nearby, are on the IGI, but William doesn't appear (I checked all the Williams baptised in those parishes around 1831, in case he was mistranscribed, but I still didn't find him).
on the marriage certifcates he has fathers name william hairyes fathers profession lawer and agg lab
Is the father's details the same on all four certs?
Thanks for the offer, Mary! Do you know how accurate his age is over the years? I looked at the 1851, 61 and 71 censuses, but had to use FMP not Ancestry so the transcript spellings of his surnamewere different making it a bit longwinded! From memory he was 27, 30 and 37 on those three. Do you have his death on FTF? (sorry to be a pain)
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 18:51
Yes, he died in 1890. I'll check the censuses again for you.
This is one of my posts on FTF, with some notes about William's marriages and children:
Children of William and Mary Ann Richmond (married 1847, Mary Ann died 1854):
None found so far
EDIT: probable child of William and Mary Ann:
Births Dec 1854
Haryes Ann Ripon 9a 67
Deaths Dec 1854
Haryes Ann Ripon 9a 53
Haryes Mary Ann Ripon 9a 51
Ann Haryes, infant, buried at Kirby Malzeard on 24/12/1854 (NBI)
There's a burial for a Mary Ann Haynes, aged 27, at the same church on 23/10/1854, who must be her mother, as there's no other burial there with a similar name to Haryes.
Children of William and Hannah Tiplin (married 1858; Hannah died q2 1867):
Henry, b. 1859 Knaresborough RD, bp 1859
? Elizabeth b 1861 Knaresborough RD (not found on census, and can’t see a baptism or death for her)
? John c 1866 (on census, but can’t find a birth or baptism)
Children of William and Elizabeth Hogg (married q3 1867; Elizabeth died 1882):
Hannah b q4 1867 Knaresborough RD
Mary b 1870, Knaresborough RD
Ada Whorler/Waller b 1877 Knaresborough RD, bp 1877
William Whorley b 1872 Bramley RD
George Thomas W b 1874 Bramley RD
James Arthur W b 1878 Bramley RD
? Samuel b 1881 Bramley RD (not found on census)
Children of William and Mary Ann Hoys (married 1885; William died 1890):
None found so far, but haven’t found Mary Ann in 1891 yet.
The name Whorler/Whorley/Waller appears to be significant, and I wonder if it was William's mother's maiden name. Haven't found a Hairyes/Whorler etc. marriage yet, though, and as it wasn't used before 1867, it may be connected with Elizabeth. I image the W in James and George's names stands for Whorler or whatever.
I haven't found a lot in the West Yorks baptisms yet, but there's probably more to be found in New Wortley. The Ripon and Knaresborough area baptisms may not be there, depending on where they took place exactly.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 18:55
William's marriages and death:
Marriages Dec 1847
HARES William Ripon 23 571
RICHMOND Mary Ann Ripon 23 571 +
I've assumed this is the same William as the others because of the Thirsk birthplace in the 1851 census, but we really need the marriage cert.
Marriages Dec 1858
HAIRYES William Knaresbro' 9a 154
Tipling Hannah Knaresborough 9a 154
Marriage cert:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2253&iid=32355_249490-00953&fn=William&ln=Haryes&st=d&ssrc=&pid=9631224
William Haryes, 27, bachelor, farmer, father William Haryes, turner.
Marriages Sep 1867
Hairyes William Knaresbro' 9a 132
Hogg Elizabeth Knaresbro' 9a 132
Zoenel has this cert: father William, ag lab.
Marriages Jun 1885
HAIRYES William Bramley 9b 464
Hoys Mary Ann Bramley 9b 464
Marriage cert:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2253&iid=32355_249502-01249&fn=William&ln=Hairyes&st=d&ssrc=&pid=7513060
William Hairyes, 50, widower, porter, father William Hairyes deceased, lawyer (written very clearly - doesn't look like sawyer)
Deaths Jun 1890
Hairyes William 59 Bramley 9b 270
Thanks very much Mary.
I suppose the chances are his family were called Harris!
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 18:57
I can't check the censuses on Ancestry at the mo because I'm getting the boy with the noose. I'll have a look at them later.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 18:59
Thanks very much Mary.
I suppose the chances are his family were called Harris!
Not necessarily :)
I had a look to see where the name might have come from; no idea how accurate this site is, but it sounds plausible:
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Hairyes
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 19:13
Censuses
1851 (may not be the right William)
Living at Kirkby Malzeard, Yorks.
William Haryes, head, 24, farm labourer, born Thirsk parish
Mary Ann, wife, 25
1861
Living at Bilton with Harrogate
William Hairyes, head, 30, ag lab, born Balk, Yorkshire
Anna, wife, 25
Henry, son, 1
1871
Living in Knaresborough
William Hairyes, head, 37, ag lab, born Scotland
Elizabeth Hairyes, wife, 31
Henry Hairyes, son, 10
Emily Hogg, wife's daughter, 9
John Hairyes, son, 6,
Anna Hairyes, daughter, 3
Mary Hairyes, daughter, 10 months
1881
Living in New Wortley, near Leeds, West Yorks
William Hairges, head, 46, railway porter, born "on the ocean"
Elizabeth Hairges, wife, 41
Henery Hairges, son, 21
Emily Hogg, stepdaughter, 19
John Hairges, son, 16
Hannah Hairges, daughter, 13
Mary Hairges, daughter, 10
Wm Hairges, son, 8
George T Hairges, son, 6
James A Hairges, son, 2
I can't check the censuses on Ancestry at the mo because I'm getting the boy with the noose. I'll have a look at them later.
1851: HO107 Piece:2281 Folio:479 Page:9
1861: RG09 Piece:3207 Folio:8 Page:9
1871: RG10 Piece:4284 Folio:54 Page:5
I can't find 1881 on FMP
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 19:20
There is a Hairs family at Elloughton, Yorkshire (nowhere near Harrogate/Knaresborough or Thirsk) in 1841, but I don't think it's the right one.
William Hairs, 24, ag lab
Elizabeth, 28
William, 5
Joseph, 4
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 19:34
I've just edited post #22 to add marriage details and links to the marriage certs on Ancestry.
None of the witnesses appear to be related to William.
One name keeps cropping up, which may be significant.
The son William's full name was William Whorley Hairyes according to his birth entry on FreeBMD.
Another probable daughter, who was born and died between censuses (in 1877), was Ada Whorler Hairyes on her birth entry and Ada Waller Hairyes on her death entry.
Two of the children's births are listed as George Thomas W and James Arthur W Hairyes. If I remember rightly, James' third name was given as Whorler when he married, but Ancestry's still playing up, so I can't check.
Whorler/Whorley/Walley might be William's mother's maiden name, but I haven't found a Hairyes to Whorler etc. marriage, and the name isn't used by the family before 1867, so it may relate to Elizabeth Hogg's family.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 19:42
Just noticed something that I should have noticed before - the William who married Hannah Tipling in 1858 says he's a bachelor.
So either he was lying for some reason, or the marriage to Mary Ann Richmond in 1847 isn't the same William.
The spelling Hairyes is fairly consistent in the censuses and BMDs from 1861 onwards, whereas in the marriage to Mary Ann in 1847 his name is shown in FreeBMD as Hares. When she dies, her surname is shown as Haryes.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 19:46
Another interesting thing that I hadn't noticed before is that William's signature on the marriage certificate to Hannah in 1858 is very different from his signature on the marriage certificate to Mary Ann Hoys in 1885.
In view of the census entries, it has to be the same William, though.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 20:02
it was in desperation having the failure family tree forum to locate william srn that i came here.
No problem at all with asking on different forums, because there's always a chance that new people will find something different.
However, bear in mind that you won't necessarily find information instantly - some things are easy to find online, but others may take years. You may need to visit Record Offices or other archives in person, or wait until more databases come online.
There are plenty of people here and on other forums who've been looking for certain elusive ancestors for 20 years or more, so don't think you've failed just because you haven't found what you're looking for in a few days :)
I'm not ignoring you Mary, just not getting anywhere! lol
That business of bachelor for the 'second' marriage is interesting.
Do we know which of the various children is Zoe's ancestor?
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 20:21
Zoe says in one of her numerous postings on other boards that she's descended from John Hairyes born 1865, presumably the son of William and Hannah. I don't know if she has his birth cert.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 21:01
There is one possible baptism that I found on the IGI, but it is a very long shot:
William Sayrs, baptised 23 September 1830 at Kirby Knowle, Yorkshire, parents Joanah and Ann.
Balk is in the parish of Kirby Knowle, and I wondered if Sayrs might be a mistranscription for Hairyes. You'd need to view the original registers to check it, though; I don't think they're online anywhere.
Kirby K is next to Thirsk, isn't it?
There is one possible baptism that I found on the IGI, but it is a very long shot:
William Sayrs, baptised 23 September 1830 at Kirby Knowle, Yorkshire, parents Joanah and Ann.
Balk is in the parish of Kirby Knowle, and I wondered if Sayrs might be a mistranscription for Hairyes. You'd need to view the original registers to check it, though; I don't think they're online anywhere.
There are two other baps for children of Jonah and Ann, surname Sayer.
No it cant be becuase william consistently says is father is william hairyes,no other name.thanks,thats one of only consistent things he does say!
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 21:48
Yes, true, I was forgetting that.
It's very annoying that he keeps changing his mind about his birthplace, and the fact that he says he was a bachelor when he married Hannah means that the marriage to Mary Ann in 1847 and the 1851 census entry may not be correct.
I can't imagine why he'd give the wrong birthplace or marital status unless he had something to hide, but I can't imagine what it might be. The two completely different signatures on the marriage certs are odd, as well.
Does the signature on the cert you have match any of the others?
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 21:55
No idea if it's relevant, but I found quite a few people with the surname Whorley living in Bagby, which is only a couple of miles from Balk.
One of them was a William Whorley, baptised in 1828, mother Hannah. No father named, so he was presumably illegitimate.
I haven't had time to look at anything as I've been trying to absorb everything on this thread:
http://www.genealogyforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9399
and on page 4 there's a link to another thread from a few months ago.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 22:21
A William Whorley aged 11, possibly Hannah's son, is in the Thirsk Union Workhouse in 1841. Can't find him in the later censuses, and I can't see a likely candidate for Hannah.
Again, this is a bit of a long shot, but it might explain a few things.
Somebody who was born illegitimate and spent time in the workhouse might be sufficiently ashamed of both to change his surname, be vague about his birthplace, and invent a father's name when he got married.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 22:25
I haven't had time to look at anything as I've been trying to absorb everything on this thread:
http://www.genealogyforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9399
and on page 4 there's a link to another thread from a few months ago.
Thanks, Merry - I'd seen that thread, but I hadn't noticed there were 5 pages, so I only looked at the first one :)
kiterunner
30-06-11, 22:39
I don't think that 1841 census that's posted a few times on those threads can be the right family because of the ages of the two Williams.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 22:48
No, I'm sure it isn't, as I said upthread. Famsearch has a baptism for a Joseph Hairs in Elloughton in 1837, but there's no baptism for a William there.
thanks for your help, william wasnt illigimate he states fathers name william hairyes on every marriage certificate.the william srn we thought was buried in rothwell, was mis transcribed by ancestry as writen eralier in this thread.
the hannah whollery connection near thirsk sonds promising,is there anyway of finding a marriage for hannah,thanks.
Mary from Italy
01-07-11, 21:08
thanks for your help, william wasnt illigimate he states fathers name william hairyes on every marriage certificate.
I know he does, but illegitimate people quite often invented a father's name to make things look more respectable when they got married, and quite often used their own Christian name as their father's. Anyway, it's just a possibility.
the hannah whollery connection near thirsk sonds promising,is there anyway of finding a marriage for hannah,thanks.
I've had a quick look and not found anything obvious.
You could try familysearch.org and FreeBMD.
If I were you I'd research all William's children in as much detail as possible, in case anything turns up.
Mary from Italy
01-07-11, 22:26
In case it's relevant, while William Whorley was in Thirsk workhouse in 1841, there was also a 15-year-old Rachael Whorley, born in Yorkshire, in the same workhouse.
In 1851, Rachel Whorley, unmarried, aged 28, born in Balk, Yorkshire, was back in Thirsk workhouse with her one-month illegitimate son, William, who was baptised in Thirsk in 1851.
According to familysearch.org a Rachel Worley, presumably the same girl, also had a daughter Sarah, baptised in Thirsk in 1844.
I can't find a baptism for Rachel.
kiterunner
02-07-11, 09:02
Just by the way, if you aren't sure which is William's marriage to the first Mary Ann, get the birth certificate of one of their children as that will give you Mary Ann's maiden name.
Mary anns(first wife) surname is richmond. Is there any other wholerys around thirsk or a marriage for ann whollery?,i think it could be his mothers surname but find it hard to beleive that william whollery is william hairyes unless there was proof. is there anyeviedence of a williamwhollery in any other cenucus after 1841? im sorry i dont know what im doing checking records thats why ive asked for your help.thanks
Why would he change his name to Hairyes,such a unique and strange name? Could it be that william srn was his father but never married his mother in this case ann wholery, and may have left town without meeting his son so his surname would have been whollery then.
sorry i meant hannah whollery
kiterunner
02-07-11, 13:32
Mary anns(first wife) surname is richmond.
Do you have that from the birth certificate of one of their children, or just from someone finding a possible marriage?
Mary from Italy
02-07-11, 13:45
Allan found it on YorksBMD, which I always forget to check.
Zoe doesn't have that cert., but there's now some doubt as to whether it's her William, because on his next marriage (to Hannah Tipling) he says he's a bachelor.
We haven't found any children for William and that Mary Ann so far.
Mary from Italy
02-07-11, 13:49
Why would he change his name to Hairyes,such a unique and strange name? Could it be that william srn was his father but never married his mother in this case ann wholery, and may have left town without meeting his son so his surname would have been whollery then.
That's certainly one possibility.
I agree that if this is your William, there must be a good reason why he chose an unusual name like Hairyes. What often happens with illegitimate births is that the mother gives the child her own surname, but uses the father's surname as the child's middle name. However, William Whorley wasn't given a middle name when he was baptised.
I was hoping to find out more about Rachel Whorley, but I've drawn a blank so far. We really need her baptism and marriage to see who her parents were. If she turns out to be Hannah's daughter, as we know she was born in Balk, it makes it very likely that William Whorley was also born in Balk.
You might try searching the censuses for Rachel and William Whorley, and looking for a death or marriage for Rachel.
Anyway, this is just one of many possibilities - it could be that William's surname really was Hairyes, and he was baptised in one of the many parishes that aren't online yet.
kiterunner
02-07-11, 14:03
So, I would say the best thing to do next is get a birth certificate for one of the children of William and the first Mary Ann, to confirm her maiden name, and then get the marriage certificate to see what it says for William's age, residence, father's name and occupation, and witnesses' names.
Oops, sorry, you said there weren't any children from that marriage! Er, forget that idea, then!
Mary from Italy
02-07-11, 14:07
is there anyeviedence of a williamwhollery in any other cenucus after 1841?
It's William Whorley you need to look for.
There is a William Whorley of roughly the right age, but I haven't found him before 1881. He was born in Sutton, Yorks, but there's more than one Sutton. One of them is very near Thirsk.
Mary from Italy
02-07-11, 14:08
So, I would say the best thing to do next is get a birth certificate for one of the children of William and the first Mary Ann, to confirm her maiden name, and then get the marriage certificate to see what it says for William's age, residence, father's name and occupation, and witnesses' names.
Oops, sorry, you said there weren't any children from that marriage! Er, forget that idea, then!
The marriage cert would certainly be useful, to see who that William's father was. It isn't in the new West Yorks database.
how can it be william hairyes be william wallery if there living in the same time on the cencus with different places,it isnt him. could you upload the information youve found on the activities of william wallery on to this forum please,i only have access of ancestry uk at library.
i found out his first wifes name from this thread. thanks
williams father is listed on the two marriage certificates i have as william hairyes(spelt correclt)
i found out his first wifes name from this thread. thanks
Post #21 - Info from Mary from Italy says this of the first marriage:
Children of William and Mary Ann Knowles or Richmond (married 1847, Mary Ann died 1854)
So, we don't yet know which Mary Ann was the bride out of the two possibles on this list:
Marriages Dec 1847
CAMPBELL James Ripon 23 571
HARES William Ripon 23 571
KAY James Ripon 23 571
KNOWLES Mary Ann Ripon 23 571
LOFTHOUSE Jane Ripon 23 571
RICHMOND Mary Ann Ripon 23 571
RODWELL Jane Ripon 23 571
THOMPSON George Ripon 23 571
kiterunner
02-07-11, 18:47
Look at posts #6 and #7 of this thread, Merry - Allan found the marriage on Yorkshire BMD and so we know who married whom, but as I understand it, we don't know whether that couple are William Hairyes and his Mary Ann, or a completely different couple.
Oh OK. I am finding this thread (and the others) very difficult to follow.
i apoligize for the diffuclty in reading this thread,its my fault as im pretty new to this kind of thread
I agree, with you, i will have to check the cencus for whollery when i get the chance prob monday or tues now, but i have a thought even if william is not the daughter of ann whollery. i feel its to much of a coincedence the family born in balk. i have visted balk and it is one of the tinyiest villages. so if theres whollerys in balk at approx time of williams birth.he must be related to them . i wander if theres any female potenetial whollerys who could be the right age for williams mother in balk at that time.those other whollerys could be his cousins,thanks for a great job,im sure where close to get to the bottom of this.
Mary from Italy
02-07-11, 21:43
Whorley :)
hi everyone thanks for your pesidence. I have found a william herris on ancestry in births,with a wife hannah herris and son william herris. i put in seaerching for william hairyes birth 1817-1837 balk,thirsk,yorkshire-lived in bilton,yorkshire,england.family members wiliam hairyes,hannah whoreley.can anyone check this please as im not member and it wont show me full details?.
Uncle John
03-07-11, 12:59
Zoe - you will have to get your spelling up to speed if you want to make progress. You have spelt Whorley three different ways so far, none of them right.
just checked cencus on genes reuinted. i bielive that william whorley could be william hairyes. i think we have found him! hannah whorley is on the 1851 cenucus living in topcliffe in nr thirsk born 1776 bickerton,thirsk. i wonder why she sent william to the work house.? i wonder if rachael whorly is williams sister.
does it say anything about mothers age on the baptism for william whorley.and does it say fathes naem blank?
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 13:51
You can search baptisms for free on these two sites:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
https://www.familysearch.org/#form=advanced-records
both belonging to the LDS (Church of the Latterday Saints).
I found William Whorley's baptism (Bagby, 1828) on both sites, and no father's name is given, which usually means the child is illegitimate. However, they only do a brief transcription; there may also be notes in the original register which haven't been transcribed. Some vicars do make a note of the alleged father's name in the case of illegitimacy, but most don't, unless the father turned up for the baptism. The mother's age is never given.
You can often find more detailed transcriptions on this site:
http://www.freereg.org.uk/search/index.htm
but they haven't done many North Yorks parishes yet, and Bagby isn't included.
As I said in an earlier message, bear in mind that numerous parishes aren't online yet, so your William may be in one of them.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 14:00
Zoe - you will have to get your spelling up to speed if you want to make progress. You have spelt Whorley three different ways so far, none of them right.
I would guess from Zoe's earlier posts that she's either dyslexic or not used to typing.
Either way, Zoe, to make sure you get the spelling of names right when you're searching, it'd be a good idea to copy and paste them. I'll explain how to do that if you don't know.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 14:13
OK, to sum up:
So far we have Zoe's William Hairyes (possibly born in Balk) on the censuses from 1861 to 1881 with his various wives (he dies in 1890), and possibly in 1851 with a first wife Mary Ann Richmond (but this may not be Zoe's William as he says he's a bachelor when he marries Hannah Tipling).
We haven't found him in 1841 yet, unless he's the William Hairs with parents William and Elizabeth in Elloughton, but I don't think that's him.
There is a William Whorley baptised in Bagby (very near Balk) in 1828, mother Hannah, no father named. A William Whorley (possibly the same one), aged 11, is in Thirsk workhouse in 1841. There's a Rachael Whorley aged 15 in the same workhouse two lines below William.
A Rachel Whorley aged 28 (possibly the same one) is in Thirsk workhouse in 1851 with a baby son William. If she turns out to be the sister of the William Whorley who was in the workhouse in 1841, it's possible that he was born in Balk too.
However, I haven't found Rachel's baptism yet, or a marriage for her.
It's not impossible that the William in the workhouse is 1841 is William Hairyes, but we'd need a lot more information to prove it. There certainly is a connection between William Hairyes and the name Whorley, because he used it as a middle name for several of his children. However, he doesn't seem to have used it before 1867, when he married Elizabeth Hogg, so the name may be related to her family.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 14:29
Other Whorleys baptised in Bagby according to familysearch:
Mary 1813, Elizabeth 1815, Phillis 1823 and William 1828: mother Hannah, no father named
Thomas 1818: parents William and Hannah
Jane 1830: mother Mary, no father named
Ellen 1859: parents John and Elizabeth
The four children born to a Hannah with no father named may not all be the children of the same Hannah, and the Hannah who was the mother of Thomas may or may not be the mother of any of the others.
I can't find a likely marriage between a William Whorley and a Hannah.
One of the problems with the familysearch site is that they have hardly any burials, so we can't check to see if there's a death for William Whorley, husband of Hannah.
One possible scenario is that William father of Thomas died, and his widow Hannah had more children without remarrying.
You really need to view the original parish registers for Bagby to sort out these families.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 14:47
hannah whorley is on the 1851 cenucus living in topcliffe in nr thirsk born 1776 bickerton,thirsk.
They're actually living in Fawdington. I don't think that Hannah is likely to be the mother of William Whorley bap. 1828, I'm afraid.
Firstly, if she was born in 1776, she'd be 52 in 1828, which would make her very old to be William's mother, although he might have been born a year or two before his baptism, I suppose.
Secondly, on the 1851 census she's with husband Thomas, and there are four children with them, aged 32-45, mostly born in Fawdington, and a couple of grandhildren. They're together with some of their children and grandchildren in 1841, listed as Wooler. It's unlikely that this Hannah would have had illegitimate children under the name of Whorley in 1828, because they were presumably already married by then.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 15:11
I have found some Whorley burials for Bagby in the National Burial Index:
William, born 1766, buried 1844
Hannah, born 1778, buried 1821
Rachel, born 1809, buried 1816
Thomas, born 1819, buried 1820
Caroline, born 1859, buried 1861
They don't help us a lot, I've just posted them for reference in case they come in useful later.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 15:13
You can view the Ancestry images of Balk village in 1841 here:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=ERYHO107_1234_1237-0492&fn=William&ln=Atkeinson&st=d&ssrc=&pid=11778446
There are no Hairyes or Whorleys, but there's a William Worley, ag lab, aged 75, living alone. I expect he's the William Whorley who was buried in Bagby in 1844 (there was no church in Balk, remember).
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 15:21
i wonder why she sent william to the work house.?
There are numerous possibilities. She may have died, or remarried and her husband didn't want him, or was on her own and had to go into service to support herself. I haven't found her in 1841 yet.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 15:52
I just checked the NBI for Hairyes and similar, and found an Ann Haryes, infant, buried at St. Andrew's church, Kirby Malzeard on 24/12/1854. I expect she was the child of the William and Mary Ann who were living there in 1851.
There's a burial for a Mary Ann Haynes, aged 27, at the same church on 23/10/1854, who must be her mother, as there's no other burial there with a similar name to Haryes.
kiterunner
03-07-11, 16:09
There is a birth and a death registration for Ann Haryes in Ripon district Oct-Dec 1854. The birth certificate would give the mother's maiden name, but I wonder if we can find anything to confirm that Ann belongs to the right family before Zoe orders it.
Births Dec 1854
Haryes Ann Ripon vol 9a page 67
kiterunner
03-07-11, 16:14
Not sure if Mary Ann's death registration has already been posted on this thread? It is Oct-Dec 1854 Ripon district too, matching the burial that Mary found, and the surname is Haryes on the GRO index, so it does look very likely indeed that Ann is William and Mary Ann's daughter and I would say it's worth getting Ann's birth cert.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 16:22
I'd just edited post #21, where I listed all the wives and children, to include those entries.
The marriage cert of Mary Ann and William might also be useful, to get William's father's name and occupation, although if it is Zoe's William, I can't imagine why he would have called himself a bachelor when he married Hannah, as Mary Ann had already died.
That sounds promising about a potentional son in kirby malzehead.ive checked the cencus on genes reuinted,i cant find a hannah whorley so far. i agree that the one born in 1776 is probabley too old but i have thought that hannah born 1776 was born in bickerton which is only 5 miles from thirsk. ive checked for a birth for rachael whalley the potential sister iin thirsk workhouse but cant find anything yet.can anyone find anything yet?
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 16:35
No, I haven't found a baptism for Rach(a)el so far.
kiterunner
03-07-11, 16:39
I'd just edited post #21, where I listed all the wives and children, to include those entries.
The marriage cert of Mary Ann and William might also be useful, to get William's father's name and occupation, although if it is Zoe's William, I can't imagine why he would have called himself a bachelor when he married Hannah, as Mary Ann had already died.
I'm probably behind on this again, but I thought we weren't sure whether that Mary Ann Richmond marriage was the right one or not, and so Ann's birth certificate would be the one to get first, to check what it says for mother's maiden name? And then get the marriage cert if the name matches?
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 16:51
There are a couple of possible marriages for Rachel Whorley.
In 1854 a Rachel Whorley married a Thomas Moyns in Copmanthorpe, Yorks.
They're in the 1851 census, transcribed as Moyers, but that Rachel was born in Hunslet c. 1825, so she's presumably the wrong person.
In 1855 a Rachel Whorley married John Colley or Walter Reynolds in the Thirsk registration district.
I can't see a Walter Reynolds with wife Rachel in 1861, but there is a John Colley with wife Rachel, living in Sharow, Yorks.
She says she was born in Sand Hutton, Yorks, c. 1831, and there's an Elizabeth Whorley, visitor, aged 16, living with them, also born in Sand Hutton. Sand Hutton's quite a long way from Thirsk - it's near York.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 16:58
I'm probably behind on this again, but I thought we weren't sure whether that Mary Ann Richmond marriage was the right one or not, and so Ann's birth certificate would be the one to get first, to check what it says for mother's maiden name? And then get the marriage cert if the name matches?
We don't know if that William is the right one at all, unfortunately.
We know from YorksBMD that a William Hares married Mary A Richmond in Ripon in 1847.
We have William and Mary Ann Haryes living together in Kirby Malzeard, near Ripon, in 1851, but there's nothing definite to connect him to Zoe's William; he says he was born in Thirsk parish, so I assumed it was him, but when he remarries to Hannah Tipling he says he's a bachelor, so I'm now uncertain whether he's Zoe's William.
theres 20 miles betwen thirsk and york
i have found ann whorley birth born 29/3/1781 in brafferton yorkshire father richard whorley not sure if this any use.
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 18:40
theres 20 miles betwen thirsk and york
Yes, it's quite close nowadays, but it was a fair distance to travel in those days.
i have found ann whorley birth born 29/3/1781 in brafferton yorkshire father richard whorley not sure if this any use.
Brafferton is quite near Fawdington, so there may be some connection with the family we found there.
Having started reading at post 79/80 I was pleased to know I more or less know what's going on! lol Nothing to add at the moment though.
Oh, except the bad news that Thirsk Union records have not survived for the period in question. :(
In 1855 a Rachel Whorley married John Colley or Walter Reynolds in the Thirsk registration district.
I can't see a Walter Reynolds with wife Rachel in 1861, but there is a John Colley with wife Rachel, living in Sharow, Yorks.
She says she was born in Sand Hutton, Yorks, c. 1831, and there's an Elizabeth Whorley, visitor, aged 16, living with them. Sand Hutton's quite a long way from Thirsk - it's near York.
According to Hugh Wallis there are two places called Sand Hutton. He lists them as Sand Hutton Near Thirsk and Sand Hutton Near York. Genuki seems to mention the one near Thirsk and if you google there's lots of info on the one near York.
Zoe,
How is the surname pronounced? Hairs? hay-ers? some other way?
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 20:17
I found the baptism for the Elizabeth Whorley who was with Rachel Colley in 1861; Elizabeth was baptised at Sand Hutton near Thirsk in 1845, parents Thomas and Elizabeth, and appears to have two sisters, Mary Ann bap 1837 and Hannah bap 1849.
There's a Thomas and Elizabeth Worley in Sand Hutton near Thirsk in 1871 with a son Richard; I think they may be the parents of Elizabeth and her sisters. Thomas was born Fawdington c. 1807; possibly a son of the couple Zoe found in the 1851 census.
Can't see a baptism for Rachel in Sand Hutton.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=NRYRG10_4831_4836-0430&fn=Thomas&ln=Worley&st=d&ssrc=&pid=28611550
Mary from Italy
03-07-11, 20:20
According to Hugh Wallis there are two places called Sand Hutton. He lists them as Sand Hutton Near Thirsk and Sand Hutton Near York. Genuki seems to mention the one near Thirsk and if you google there's lots of info on the one near York.
Thanks, Merry, I'd missed that.
The one near Thirsk is only 7 miles from Balk.
Just to clarify.....
Are we in agreement that neither of the Rachel Whorley marriages are for the woman who said she was born at Balk? Mary, you discounted the one to Thomas Moyns becase of his wife's age and birthplace.
I'm assuming the marriage to John Colley was the Rachel who is on the 1851 census b 1832 in Sessay, which is near Thirsk.
I have been looking for William Whorley (son of Rachel, born 1851 Thirsk Union) in1861 without success. It would seem Rachel also had a dau, Sarah, bap ......bother, closed the Family Search page by mistake - think it was 1854 in Thirsk. Can't see a birth reg for her. No deaths either.......
Have to do school run.........
Dau, Sarah was 1844 not 1854, but haven't seen any sign of her other than the bap.
EDIT and possibly her birth reg:
Births Mar 1845
WHORLEY Sarah Thirsk 24 509
The bap was 14th Nov 1844, so might be a slightly late reg?
In 1861 there's a Sarah Wholler, dairymaid aged 16 b Thirsk who might be Rachel's dau (obviously might not be the same Rachel as Wm's mother)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=NRYRG9_3630_3636-0762&fn=Sarah&ln=Wholler&st=d&ssrc=&pid=12112666
If she was alive in 1861 then where was she in 1851?? Perhaps who she is with might be significant.
the name is pronouned haireez but spelt hairyes
just checked the older hannnah whorley born 1876 on 1851 cencus and she has a youngest child 31 years old.william would have been 33.could this be williams mother.and she had a fling with william hairyes srn and sent william to workhouse?
I don't see how William would have been 33 in 1851?
sorry i meant 23, i cant find hannah so far on ancestry.apart from the older one.
Well, she might be dead or married!
still cant find hannah whorley .i cant find a marriage birth or a death. her surnmane would have be still whorley on any birth or marriage. ti still comes up that old hannah and then ones born much later. thanks for your help
If Hannah died or was married before 1837 and the event did not happen in a place for which the records are available online or via the NBI etc etc then it could be a long haul to find the information you need.
yeah good point,but mary manged to find a series of whorleys in bagby right next balk.surely hannah may have been a local girl was there it a hannah in bagby who couldve been willliams mum? checked williams information for the workhouse at ancestry libarary absalultly brilliant,it could be him! thanks
In 1861 there's a Sarah Wholler, dairymaid aged 16 b Thirsk who might be Rachel's dau (obviously might not be the same Rachel as Wm's mother)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=NRYRG9_3630_3636-0762&fn=Sarah&ln=Wholler&st=d&ssrc=&pid=12112666
If she was alive in 1861 then where was she in 1851?? Perhaps who she is with might be significant.
Hmmmm.... Now I'm thinking maybe this isn't Rachel's daughter as she possibly appears again in 1871 as Sarah Waller aged 23 b Thirsk. Having said that, there is no birth or bap for a Sarah Waller/Wholler etc and I've not seen her in 1851.
checked williams information for the workhouse at ancestry libarary absalultly brilliant,it could be him! thanks
I thought the workhouse records had not survived???
surely hannah may have been a local girl was there it a hannah in bagby who couldve been willliams mum?
Probably, but at the moment we are relying on various online records which don't cover every parish.
Marriages Sep 1867
Hairyes William Knaresbro' 9a 132
Hogg Elizabeth Knaresbro' 9a 132
Zoenel has this cert: father William, ag lab.
Zoenel, I've tried to find a post giving the names of the witnesses at this marriage, but I can't find one. Could you tell us who they are please and whether you have been able to trace them on the census etc. How does Wm's signature compare to the other two versions?
I have traced back both witnesses and their spouses from the last marriage, but they don't seem to be connected.
Any stabs at Isabella's surname on the other cert would be useful!
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2253&iid=32355_249490-00953&fn=William&ln=Haryes&st=d&ssrc=&pid=9631224
maggie_4_7
05-07-11, 07:06
I think it's Yaney.
Edit to say: With variations Yanney, Yanny I think it's probably a name that even the people with it didn't know how to spell it.
Oooh, I hadn't considered that. I thought it was Fancy!
maggie_4_7
05-07-11, 07:18
Oooh, I hadn't considered that. I thought it was Fancy!
I hadn't thought that was an F I thought Y but I suppose it could be Faney/Fanny.
kiterunner
05-07-11, 07:29
It looks like Fancy to me too.
I only thought of that because I went to school with someone of that name!
Whoever she is, she is difficult to find. :(
kiterunner
05-07-11, 08:41
Her first name is actually written Isablla in her signature, so she may have left a letter or two out of her surname as well, I suppose.
Could well be, Sabrina. I've not found anything on a census that seems to fit, yet!
Mary from Italy
05-07-11, 12:56
Just to complicate things, I thought she might be Arabella.
maggie_4_7
05-07-11, 13:04
Just to complicate things, I thought she might be Arabella.
Me too but I didn't like to say after fancy and yanny! LOL
kiterunner
05-07-11, 13:29
Ah, I think she's the Isabella Fryer who married William Tipling in 1860, so she's unlikely to be any help with the Hairyes side of the family:
ancestry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2253&iid=32355_249490-00966&fn=Isabella&ln=Tryer&st=d&ssrc=&pid=20763454)
Mary from Italy
05-07-11, 13:42
Ah, well done. I was just starting to look for Tipling marriages. Her signature looks nothing like Fryer, but it seems logical.
Ah, nice one Kate!
So, next we need some luck with the witnesses from the middle marriage :)
Mary from Italy
05-07-11, 14:44
I thought the workhouse records had not survived???
Zoe can only access Ancestry at the library; I think she just means she saw William Whorley in the workhouse on the 1841 census.
maggie_4_7
05-07-11, 14:45
Ah, I think she's the Isabella Fryer who married William Tipling in 1860, so she's unlikely to be any help with the Hairyes side of the family:
ancestry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2253&iid=32355_249490-00966&fn=Isabella&ln=Tryer&st=d&ssrc=&pid=20763454)
Well done Kate!
Zoe can only access Ancestry at the library; I think she just means she saw William Whorley in the workhouse on the 1841 census.
Ah, right. When Zoe said:
absalultly brilliant,it could be him! thanks
I assumed she must have seen something we hadn't.
i was been polite thanking you for your help. i havent got the first marriage ceritficate,sorry. it was the 1841 cenus i managed to check though ancestry library. the wittness for the 3rd marriage to elizabeth hogg juky 29th 1847 are- james smith and what looks like a homer witson.the marriage was in the parish church knasborugh.thanks good luck
Any chance of you posting up the witness bit of that Hairyes/Hogg cert so we can take a look at Homer Witson's sig?
Mary from Italy
06-07-11, 14:58
My crystal ball tells me it'll be something like James Wilson :)
I'm not really expecting the witnesses to help much; if William gave incorrect birthplaces deliberately because he had something to hide, he won't have invited witnesses who were related to him.
lol I was thinking Thomas Wilson!!
I agree it's unlikely he will have had a rellie at any wedding, but as Zoe has the cert I thought it best to ask.
Am I right in thinking we still need to know what happened to Rachel and her daughter, Sarah?
Mary from Italy
06-07-11, 17:14
Yes, and her son William. I've been a bit busy the last couple of days, so I haven't had time to do any more searching.
Yes, and her son William.
Ooh yes, I couldn't find him either.........
Mary from Italy
06-07-11, 18:13
I must say Zoe is rather unfortunate as a beginner in having such a difficult family to find. There's nothing straightforward about any of them.
kiterunner
06-07-11, 18:36
Speaking from experience, if you start out researching a really difficult branch, you learn a heck of a lot along the way and it makes researching the rest of your tree that much easier. Kind of a baptism of fire, though.
is there anyway we could trace anyhing from williams first marriage witnesses. well my family must be hard to find if even you guys are having trouble. did you manage to find any link from the 3rd marriage witnsss for his 3rd marriage to elizabeth hogg?
When you say first marriage which one do you mean? (I think we are not 100% that the 'first' and 'second' marriage are for the same man??)
I have done my best to trace the four witnesses from the two marriages where we have the images of the certificate on this thread. I think I have found all of them (with others help), but none (or their spouses) appear to be connected to the groom's family. I haven't looked at James Smith or Homer Witson as it's probably pointless to try with a Smith and I would like to see the sig for Homer W to see what else it might say!!
i appreciate your help,i am very bascially computer litterate, i have no idea how to upload the signature of the wittness for the wedding. i was hoping other members had access t this sort of informmation,.i thought we had deciced that williams first marriage. was the one in kirby milzehead,as it is now officaly on ancestry.com.i would like those witnesses checked out please. i have checked for a william whorley on ancestry to no avail.im starting to lose hope of finding the hairyes side of the family there has to be a clue somewhere in the whole archives for williams father william hairyes srn. i wish i could be of more help but im relying on the expertise of the members,thanks again
kiterunner
07-07-11, 18:04
Sorry, not sure what you mean about the first marriage being "officially on ancestry.com"? The marriage between William Hares and Mary A Richmond in 1847 at Ripon Register Office (or registrar attended)? (see post #7 on this thread)
If you mean that one, you need to order a copy of the marriage certificate from the GRO or from Yorkshire BMD to find out whether it is your William (and then you will also get to see the witnesses' names). As far as I know, ancestry only has images of the certificates for West Yorkshire marriages that took place in C of E churches, and this one didn't.
To upload the signatures from a cert that you already have, you would need to scan the certificate in first. Sorry, got to get off the computer now but I'll add more later if nobody else has.
kiterunner
07-07-11, 18:49
Sorry, I should have said scan it in or take a photo of it. The instructions on how to add an image to a post are here:
FAQ (http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#faq_vb3_attachment s)
You would need to use software such as Microsoft Paint to crop just the bit of the cert that you want to post up because of rules about not posting up full certificates, but if you're not sure what to do, you could email the image of the certificate to the site email address and one of us can post it up for you. Let me know if you want to do it that way and I'll PM you the email address.
Just a little review.............
Marriage 1847 Wm Hares and Mary Ann Richmond
We questioned whether this is the same Wm as the other marriages, but it may well be. We don't know who the witnesses are, so can't check them.
Marriage 1858 Wm Hairyes (bachelor) and Hannah Tipling
Witnesses Wm Tipling and Isabella Fryer. These two seem to have married each other in 1860. I don't see a Fryer/Hairyes/Whorley connection.
Marriage 1867 Wm Hairyes and Elizabeth Hogg
Witnesses James Smith (not checked) and Homer Witson (not checked)
Marriage 1885 Wm Hairyes and Mary Ann Hoys
Witnesses Wm Thomas and Sarah Cotton. I've traced these two back to their marriages and seen their birth places (sorry, didn't write it down) and I didn't find any connection.
what about the wittnesses for the first marriage surely if he was in touch with his family thta would be where a starting point. also as i said in a earlier post the one consistency william has gave us is is father was william hairyes.if if he was illigimate when born theres no reason to change his name to hairyes if that wasnt his fathers name,perhaps he met up with him later on or found out of his mother. so to find eveidence of him some capacity must be a priorty,ive tried a liitle to find him but i also found many possibiltys(with slightly different spelling) in the parish records can someone check them for me .is there no way of linking him to balk or thirsk at the time of williams birth.
kiterunner
08-07-11, 07:47
Sorry, Zoe, but can you explain which marriage you mean by the first one, please?
im sorry i have never scanned anything before,i cant even upload photogrphs ! i think mary must have aaccess to the elizabeth hogg certifcate.she guessed wilson ad looking again it is thomas wilson.
sorry,just read your post before,i understand why we cant look at the first marriage. but is there a way of checking for william srn in the parish records,(simlar spelling of surname and linking him,to balk,thirsk at the time of william jrns birth,? can anyone please look for me? thanks
i meant williams potential marriage to mary ann richmond. sorry
Are you going to buy a copy of the marriage cert to Mary Ann Richmond?
i will purchase a certificate,and put details up staright away,in the mean time there has to be a way of finding william srn.thanks
kiterunner
08-07-11, 08:15
im sorry i have never scanned anything before,i cant even upload photogrphs ! i think mary must have aaccess to the elizabeth hogg certifcate.she guessed wilson ad looking again it is thomas wilson.
I reckon she scrawled Homer Witson on a piece of paper and worked out what it might look like!
kiterunner
08-07-11, 08:33
sorry,just read your post before,i understand why we cant look at the first marriage. but is there a way of checking for william srn in the parish records,(simlar spelling of surname and linking him,to balk,thirsk at the time of william jrns birth,? can anyone please look for me? thanks
I've had a look through on ancestry but I didn't see anything that looked likely.
i will purchase a certificate,and put details up staright away,in the mean time there has to be a way of finding william srn.thanks
Well, maybe or maybe not!
All of us have brick walls on our trees Zoe. I have struggled with some of mine for 20+ years and for some I know there will never be a way forward. I have seen every variation possibly that people concoct to cover illegitimacy, some of which have been solved and others which have not.
There probably will turn out to be a way to solve this mystery, just that we have not managed it so far. Certainly we have not been able to cover every angle as yet, in part because none of us live nextdoor to the appropriate record office.
Clues not yet followed up are the witnesses from the first and third marriages (if we say all four are the same man), so that is one way to go nect. We also have the missing Whorley family who apparently vanish into thin air, so that's another possible source for an answer.
Mary from Italy
08-07-11, 11:52
I reckon she scrawled Homer Witson on a piece of paper and worked out what it might look like!
Exactly :)
(The reason being that Homer was an extremely unusual name in those days, and Witson would also be very unusual, so I thought Zoe had probably misread it)
yeah i have mis read it i have the marriage certifcte in front of me right now .im just not good with computers like you guys. it says certified copy of entry of marriage given at general registry office.the reason i need your guys help in this whole subject is that you gays have more expertise in this field. but i certainly feel insulted by the fact,your having a go at me for not been complient on a computer.
kiterunner
08-07-11, 12:25
Who's been having a go at you, Zoe?
you said i had scribbled homer witson on a piece of paper! just because im not computer literate.its ok.
kiterunner
08-07-11, 12:33
Sorry, Zoe, I meant that Mary scribbled it on a piece of paper to see what else it could look like. Something I sometimes do as well to try to decipher a difficult name.
sorry got wrong end of stick!
Mary from Italy
08-07-11, 13:50
That's what I meant, too, Zoe. People on here are always polite - nobody's likely to be rude to you.
When I see a name that I think may have been misread or mistranscribed, I usually try writing it down in scrawly old-fashioned writing to see if I can work out what it should be.
If you do that, you'll see that Homer looks a lot like James or thomas.
I looked at several people transcribed as Homer on Ancestry's census records. Only one of them actually had Homer written on the page - the rest were all Thomas and James!
The problem with the witnesses from the 'third' marriage is that there are several possible people who might be the witness when looking at the censuses.
just tried it mary your right it looks like thomas wilson now.well done!
hi dont know if this is relevent,i found a william haines on 1841 cencus approx 15 years old, working as a servent in kilburn,next town down from balk,can anybody check that for me.could it be william hairyes jrn
kiterunner
08-07-11, 18:51
There is a William Haines age 27 on the 1851 census at Glass Houghton, with his parents Thomas and Mary. Thomas is a farmer and William working for him. In 1841 Thomas and Mary don't have him with them, so I suspect he might be the William Haines that you found (it does definitely say Haines on the image).
thanks for your help it loks like william hairyes has eluded us once again.
Not until you have the first marriage cert!
Mary from Italy
09-07-11, 10:28
I think it would be a good idea for Zoe to get the first cert (marriage to Mary Ann Richmond), although it may not conclusively prove that that William is hers.
I think Zoe is getting the cert, Mary.
Are you going to buy a copy of the marriage cert to Mary Ann Richmond?
i will purchase a certificate,and put details up staright away,in the mean time there has to be a way of finding william srn.thanks
the marriage certificte is important in regards fnding proof of finding williams first marriage. however as for finding williams birth or his fathers origions its not so important. it certainly doesnt have those details which are main information i have been searching for all these years. i know that henry hairyes williams eldest son emigrated to america in 1883 to milbury,mas and lived there until 1944.could it be that the hairyes family came from america thats why we cant find any hairyes births or marrigaes before 1848.can anyone check the american records to see if were thre please before .perhaps william was born at sea coming froma america and settled in thirsk.
however as for finding williams birth or his fathers origions its not so important. it certainly doesnt have those details which are main information i have been searching for all these years.
You can't say that until you have seen the certificate! What if one of the witnesses is a close relative or there is an address given which leads to other family members, or what if something on the cert proves that the 'first' marriage isn't your William after all (unlikely, perhaps, but you don't know until you have seen it)
kiterunner
09-07-11, 17:54
There's nothing on ancestry or FamilySearch for Hairyes in America before Henry.
thanks for trying ive been looking through my files and i found a hairyes surname helper.it states a marraige of sarah haires to william wray april 10th 1761 leeds.coulf this be my family further back/ can anyone help me find other family for sarah haires ?
Uncle John
09-07-11, 19:12
Zoe - first you must be sure you get the right person nearest to you. Then you can go and find their parents and you'll be sure you've found the right ones. It's very easy to pick the wrong family.Most of us haven't got our family tree back to the 1700s.
This looks like the entry:
WILLIAM WRAY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: SARAH HAIRES Family
Marriage: 10 APR 1761 Leeds, Yorkshire, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages: Record submitted by a member of the LDS Church.
It is a submitted entry rather than an extracted one (an extracted entry is one transcribed from an original source) so it would cost you at least as much money researching whether this is a genuine parish register entry, and what the entry actually says if it is genuine, as it would to buy the cert that you think is very likely to be for your actual ancestor.
Mary from Italy
09-07-11, 21:10
They were married at Leeds Parish church, and the image of the original register is in the new West Yorks database on Ancestry.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=2256&path=Leeds%2c+St+Peter+(Leeds+Parish+Church).1761. 38
The image doesn't give you any really helpful information. Sarah's name is spelled Haires by the vicar, but she was evidently illiterate (she made her mark) so he would have been guessing how to spell it.
The witnesses don't help: Mary Shute and Rosamond Gr... (Green?)
Anyway, as the others said, there's no point jumping backwards to 1761 - you need to be sure you're following the right line back.
Oh, well done for finding that Mary!
As Mary says, Zoe, the vicar probably listened to the bride say her name and then made a stab at the spelling. Before the mid Victorian period spellings were very much based on what was heard and even people who could sign their name didn't always keep to the same spelling, so it's really difficult to say whether this lady might or might not be connected to either of your Williams.
I would suggest you hang on to the details of that marriage in case it fits in at a later point, but that's about all you can do with it for now.
thanks for tracing that mary,thats brilliant.is there anyway of linking william hairyes srn to this family perhaps sarah haires was his aunt or some relation.can anyone find that haires family in leeds at that time and find out if theres a link.ive managed to find a william hares aged 21 bacan factor, of back nile leeds married elizabeth nowlan aged 20 of back nile street 21st august 1850 st peters church leeds.grooms father william hares butcher,brides father charles nowlan cloth dresser. perhaps the name changed from haires to hairyes thats why we cant find them,thanks
kiterunner
10-07-11, 17:14
If Sarah got married in 1761 we have a big gap between then and William Hairyes jr that we would need to fill in before we can find out whether she is linked to your family, Zoe.
sorry i meant william hairyes srn.sarah haires could quite fisabley be his autny.can anyone help me find the haires family in leeds.ive started the bowl rolling but i really on your expertise,thanks. starting link sarah haires married william wray apirl 10th 1761 leeds,
starting link sarah haires married william wray apirl 10th 1761 leeds,
So you want us to find Sarah's parents and then her siblings and then their marriages and then the children of those siblings carrying the name Haires or Hairyes. Then if there is one or more William amongst them we have to prove he (or the right one of them) is the father of your William Hairyes? Rather a tall order! lol Of course she might be a cousin rather than an aunt or perhaps a great aunt or maybe her name is mis-spelled altogether.
I still think you should get the 1st marriage cert for your William and see where that takes you.
ElizabethHerts
10-07-11, 18:24
Zoe, it is really better to start with what you know is fact and work backwards. I know that most of us have found someone "way back" with a tantalising surname who we think would fit nicely into our tree, however we could all waste a lot of time and acquire some more grey hairs in researching that person rather than concentrate on doing the job properly and working backwards a step at a time.
I know it seems frustrating, but one thing you learn when you embark on researching your ancestors is patience! Many of us started before the Internet was really much use, however today results can be be obtained with a click of a mouse. We all have branches which throw up mysteries, and we plod away, for months and even years until the vital piece of information appears.
Please bear with the experienced researchers here. They will make sure that you don't go off on a wild goose chase. The marriage certificate is the best place to start, then backwards from there. Be prepared to feel frustration and delight, and a myriad of other emotions. But enjoy the experience!
Sometimes it isn't the final information that is the joy, it is how I came by it, after years of painstaking research!
i apprecate your advice. the arriage certifacte wont make any difference,to finding the origins of the family.eg it has no address of william srn or william jrn. it has fathers name william hairyes,which i allready know, it has the date of cernomy and where it was held which i allready know, brides name allready know occupation ag laborer fathers ocupation lawer(which i found out in an earlier post) i will get the certificat but ut shouldnt make any diiferenece apart from paper evidence. i bekeve that sarah haires(one letter spelt different!) link is more evidence than the marriage but know one has even tried to find that whole family,even though we cant find a birth for william srn or jrn, as ive said before i ask you guys for help because you are better experts than me but you wont even look for that family.surely the name has just slowly changed froms Sarah haires spelling to hairyes,that is why we cant find a birth for william srn or jrn. can anyone do me the good service of checking this family for me(sarah haires) im going to have to give up soon and hire a pro at 60 an hour which i begrude doing,i thought you guys enjoyed this,there has to be asurname spelt simlar to hairyes that has slightly changed through time and sarah haires is the closest thanks fpr the good help youve given me.
kiterunner
10-07-11, 22:53
Zoe, one reason why you should get that marriage certificate is to check whether it is the same William on it, because your William said he was a bachelor on the marriage that we think was his second one? Also it is possible that the witnesses will be related to William - for instance, if Hannah Whorler is named as a witness we will know that William is her son. You can't be sure it is going to say father is William Hairyes a lawyer until you get a copy of it.
And yes, it may indeed have the address of William jr on it, although sometimes only parish of residence is given, sometimes there will be a full address. Also it will give his age (or maybe just full age = over 21). If he was under 21 it might say who gave their consent for him to marry.
Once you have that cert and if it turns out to be your William, you could get the birth and death certs for the daughter and the death cert for the wife in case the informant on any of them is a relative rather than William himself.
No, it would not be easy to trace Sarah because her marriage is so long before the censuses, sorry.
Zoe, please read what kiterunner has said. You have asked us for advice, but you are unhappy if the advice given isn't what you wish to hear.
I see you have had similar advice on other websites where you have posted the same problems, so there are many people all saying the same thing.
ive said before i ask you guys for help because you are better experts than me but you wont even look for that family.
I think this is a very harsh comment. If we could find anything for you online then we would have posted it up, It is much more difficult to be certain of facts in the 18th century and anything we found might not actually be the right entries as it is much harder to cross reference different facts to work out how likely a particular scenario might be. As we have not found anything online as yet, that means the next step would be to order out films of each parish register, for those parishes not yet available on Ancestry, moving in concentric circles away from Leeds and viewing them over a course of weeks months or even years at the 'local' LDS family history centre and hoping something helpful might turn up.
If this was my own tree I definitely would not contemplate such a task, but (yes, sorry) I would buy the marriage certficate.
hi, i apoligize if i have offened you guys.it is just the utter frustration of this case. and when i came out with something i thought was agood idea finding sarah haires family i felt completley rebuked. i have no skills regarding ancestry paarish records or anything.i dont drive i live in gateshead cant get to leeds for parish records,tried local place only do north east records.you guys are my last resort. oredered amrriage certificate for first marrage..how come i can find a sarh haires full marriage records and a william hares in leeds too and i have absaluly no skills and you you are far more skilled than me cant even find the family never mind the other marriage william harestheres no wonder i feel rebuked.you have excess to multiple archives.i have a one hour sesion on ancestry library editon.surely you can see why id feel a little rebuked!
Sadly, we can't help you in the way you want because there are insufficient records online to do so.
I am looking forward to hearing what the certificate reveals. Fingers crossed!
well we will see! i have just found a birth for that sarah haires born leeds 1740.how come i can find it and you guys cant.can anyone look for me in the remianing parish records and see if they can find this family im convinced its my family.it took me 30 seconds at ancestry libarry,please help.
I have looked again in the West Yorks database and I can't see it. Please could you give me the exact date, the names of her parents and the surname spelling? Thanks.
How do you know it is for the same person as the marriage?
Zoenel, family history is like a huge jigsaw puzzle, with most of the pieces missing.
There are lots of reasons for this. People may not have baptised their children and some did not marry. Where they did record the event, the records themselves may have been burnt, stolen, water damaged (and in one extreme case, the vicar's wife cut out the pages of the register to make patterns for her dresses!) Add to that the fact that online records rarely reflect ALL the surviving records for an area and the chances that you can produce an accurate family tree from online searching alone pre 1837 are small.
You must add to that the fact that all surnames are subject to change. Before widespread literacy, the vicar dictated how the name was spelled and if he was deaf, or came from a difference area, he might record it very differently from his successors & predecessors.
There is also the problem that people did not stay still. The chances are that anyone in Leeds, Bradford, Manchester etc in the 1800s had ancestors in rural counties. A lot of my ancestors had the poor taste to die before 1851, so I have no idea where they came from.
None of this makes life easy. If we can break down those brick walls, it is wonderful, but it is usually a very slow process, especially if, like so many of us, you are unable to get to the rcord offices you need to visit.
sarah haires birht (1740) leeds married a william wray april 10 th 1761 leeds.found it in internationail database on this link,thanks,
I've seen the marriage, it's the baptism/birth you found that I can't find.
Ah, I think I've found what you saw. Was it this?:
IGI Individual Record FamilySearch™ International Genealogical Index v5.0
British Isles
Search Results | Download | Print
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sarah Haires Pedigree
Female Family
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth: About 1740 Of, Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Christening:
Death:
Burial:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: William Wray Family
Marriage: 10 APR 1761
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Record submitted by a member of the LDS Church.
That isn't a baptism record, it's just a guess by a LDS church member of a likely date and place of birth for the Sarah who married in 1761.
yeah thats the one i found.can anyone trace any of the rest of that family. i think i did well finding that during a half an hour library visit,when you guys have acces to everything! thanks
I had seen it before, but it's not a real parish register entry and isn't based on any factual evidence.
EDIT - I don't mean the marriage part of it, which Mary posted up earlier on this thread - I mean the info that Sarah was born in 1740 in Leeds.
Margaret in Burton
12-07-11, 10:10
yeah thats the one i found.can anyone trace any of the rest of that family. i think i did well finding that during a half an hour library visit,when you guys have acces to everything! thanks
We don't have access to everything. There are more records not online than are.
WendyPusey
12-07-11, 11:18
I think your lucky to have had so much help from members Zoe.
You have asked for help on 4 or 5 other Forums and everyone has been very helpful in what they have found for you. You shouldn't criticise those who give up their time to help.
Mary from Italy
12-07-11, 11:19
What on earth makes you think we have access to everything, Zoe? We have access to the same things that you do. As people keep telling you, there are numerous records which aren't online yet, and maybe never will be, and the ones you need may well be among them. If you can't find what you're looking for online, it's always worth trying a visit to the local record office, or if you can't do that, you can order microfilms from your nearest LDS centre.
If you want to research your family tree properly (as opposed to using guesswork) you'll have to learn to be a lot more patient.
i apoligise my wording was wrong there,i didnt mean access to everything i meant you have an understanding of the geneolgy,how to read things, transcribing,things,and knowing where to look. i appreciate all the work that has been done here. im repeating myself here.i dont drive i live in gateshead tried local office tried but only got local files.ive tried varios libararies.how am i supposed to get to say leeds.on public transport. ! i cant view the archives without visting the places ! the reason i asked you to find sarh haires family was becase in my limited knowledge i thought since we cant find a baptism for william jrn or srn that we could skip a genration and moves things together that way. it was just an idea.you guys have really hurt my feelings now,thanks
how am i supposed to get to say leeds.on public transport. ! i cant view the archives without visting the places !
No, I appreciate that, but I think we were being made to feel we should be able to find records to help you and I was trying to explain that we can't view the archives without visting the places either!!!!!
We are all using online records as you are, it's just that we perhaps have more experience evaluating those records and it is that evaluation we are trying to help you with.
Do you know if you have an LDS Family History Centre anywhere near where you live?
Look here to see:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp
Margaret in Burton
12-07-11, 12:41
There's one here:
Sunderland England
Queen Alexandra Road
Sunderland, Tyne & Wear, England
Phone: 44 (0) 191-528 5787
Hours: T 1pm-4pm; W, Th 10am-4pm; T, F 6pm-9pm
your right,patience is a is not my strongest point! i didnt mean to come accross that way. i had no idea you had access to same files as me.im trully sorry, you guys have beena tremndous help to me.what does this place in sunderland posess,aand how would go about finding people for my research?
Margaret in Burton
12-07-11, 13:06
your right,patience is a is not my strongest point! i didnt mean to come accross that way. i had no idea you had access to same files as me.im trully sorry, you guys have beena tremndous help to me.what does this place in sunderland posess,aand how would go about finding people for my research?
Ring them up and ask. You'll have to order stuff in I believe for which there is a small charge.
ive just spoken to north yorkshire archives they have asked for a specifc date for williams potential first marriage to mary ann richmond and which church it was held in as apparantly theres 2 churches in ripon apparantly or any details would be helpfull.i mustnt have given them enough informaion to proceed.not used to this!got last 2 straight from ancestry uk
You need to contact the Register Office in Harrogate, not the Record Office. The marriage didn't take place in a C of E church (see Post 7 on this thread)
Here's the form you need to print out and send off (you need to fill in sections 1, 2 and 4 and send your money and an SAE with the form to the address on the form):
http://www.yorkshirebmd.info/cgi/pma.cgi?date=1847&county=yorkshire&reference=HE%3ARORIP%2F1%2F134&file=H&pos=11968&surname=RICHMOND&forename=Mary A&area=HE
got last 2 straight from ancestry uk
Nooooo! I bet you paid more than £9.25
Never pay more than either £9.25 from the GRO or £9 plus stamps from a local reg office.
Margaret in Burton
12-07-11, 14:31
Nooooo! I bet you paid more than £9.25
Never pay more than either £9.25 from the GRO or £9 plus stamps from a local reg office.
Oh you didn't get caught out with that rip off did you?
Margaret in Burton
12-07-11, 14:35
Either order certs direct from the GRO as in this link:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates
For the one you need it's:
William Hares
Dec qtr 1847
Ripon
Vol 23
Page 571
No need to name both parties to the marriage.
Or from the local office as in post #7 and #211
Margaret in Burton
12-07-11, 14:41
Oh you didn't get caught out with that rip off did you?
Just checked and it's:
Standard (up to 16 working days) - £22.99
Express (up to 6 working days) - £39.99
The GRO don't take much longer than 6 days at the moment and are £9.25.
Local Offices are sometimes the next day
I really don't know how they get away with such rip off charges
Margaret in Burton
12-07-11, 14:44
Merry
What's this about email me a digital copy for £2.50 on Ancestry?
I thought digital copies were illegal in England and Wales under current laws.
thanks for that. i paid £21 each for mine from ancestry uk!
I think that's an additional payment for having a digital copy as well as a paper one. :)
Margaret in Burton
12-07-11, 14:52
I think that's an additional payment for having a digital copy as well as a paper one. :)
Another rip off then as what's wrong with scanning the paper copy?
maggie_4_7
12-07-11, 18:15
thanks for that. i paid £21 each for mine from ancestry uk!
Oh no don't do that again always use the GRO if you need certificates if documents aren't available through other sites. i.e. Ancestry has London marriages and banns from 1754 - 1921 and baptisms can't remember the dates. They have West Yorkshire ones too they may have other databases that are helpful too.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates
Margaret in Burton
12-07-11, 18:22
I wonder how many millions Ancestry have raked in through this rip off
sent off for william hairyes marriage today.
potenetial first marriage today!
Fingers crossed it helps then!
reeieved marriage certificate for potential marriage for william.have uploaeded it with help of libarians. are the witnesses any help to you guys? could it be that this is where the name changed from e.g. hares to hairyes at this time. and therefore could he be under william hares for birth remeber he said born thirsk parish in 1851.can anyone find a hairs birth in thirsk parish in approx 1831? or am i getting to carried away again. cenus.you have been the best help ive had so far.thanks
I don't remember if Thirsk is online?
I've blown up the witness and dad's occ bit
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m13/merry_monty_montgomery/Other%20Research/fathersocc.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m13/merry_monty_montgomery/Other%20Research/witnesses.jpg
I can at least positively identify Walter on the census, and have found his marriages but (at first glance, anyway) that doesn't help much.
William Shutt is more tricky as there are quite a few to choose from.
The attorney as father's occ is interesting. Didn't he say lawyer on one of the other certs and we wondered if it was a mistake? I guess "a turner" may have been a mis-hearing of attorney too?
Also interesting that this first marriage was in a register office when they other two were not.........
kiterunner
22-07-11, 12:22
Wow, so his father really is supposed to be a lawyer! It has to be the same person as on the other cert.
[QUOTE=zoenel;145083 could it be that this is where the name changed from e.g. hares to hairyes at this time. and therefore could he be under william hares for birth remeber he said born thirsk parish in 1851.can anyone find a hairs birth in thirsk parish in approx 1831? or am i getting to carried away again. cenus.you have been the best help ive had so far.thanks[/QUOTE]
I still think he started life a Whorley. it's just we can't prove it at the moment!
It's driving me nuts that we can't yet find Rachel, son William and dau Sarah.
Wow, so his father really is supposed to be a lawyer! It has to be the same person as on the other cert.
Yes. That's another reason why I think he started out as a Whorley and was told some fanciful story about his father. To me this seems more likely than him being brought up in the familiy home of an attorney.
kiterunner
22-07-11, 12:53
It seems pretty unlikely that the legitimate son of an attorney would be an ag lab, but more possible if he was illegitimate.
on other certifacerts he has father ag labrorer,just this one attortney.unless he was adopted by the hairyes family and put down attoreny and fathers name william hairyes.thanks
.can anyone find a hairs birth in thirsk parish in approx 1831?
The nearest spelling in Thirsk baptism registers (IGI transcripts) is Harris and there are only two baptisms, about ten years before you need (Henry and Rebecca)
on other certifacerts he has father ag labrorer,just this one attortney.unless he was adopted by the hairyes family and put down attoreny and fathers name william hairyes.thanks
No, there is only one marriage cert out of four that says ag lab. For the other three, one says turner, one lawyer and one attorney. If turner should have said attorney ("What is your father's occupation?" "A turner" - I think that could easily be mistaken, esp if the groom didn't look like he was the son of an attorney!) then that is three marriage certs with the same occ (attorney, attorney and lawyer) and one with ag lab.
Mary from Italy
22-07-11, 14:06
I don't remember if Thirsk is online?
No, it's in North Yorks, so it isn't included in the West Yorks database on Ancestry.
Mary from Italy
22-07-11, 14:09
No, there is only one marriage cert out of four that says ag lab. For the other three, one says turner, one lawyer and one attorney. If turner should have said attorney ("What is your father's occupation?" "A turner" - I think that could easily be mistaken, esp if the groom didn't look like he was the son of an attorney!) then that is three marriage certs with the same occ (attorney, attorney and lawyer) and one with ag lab.
That's a very good point - I hadn't thought of that.
It would be extremely unusual for a lawyer's son to be a farm servant.... unless he was illegitimate, of course.
This cert certainly seems to prove that this is the same William who married the other three women, which leaves the question of why he called himself a bachelor on his second marriage, although I think we can be 99% sure that Mary Ann had already died (her death cert might confirm it, if William was the informant).
If Mary was dec'd then I guess it's possible William was asked his status in such a way that he said single and they didnt press him as to whether he had actually been married before. Or they forgot to actually ask and fillled in the box with a guess?
Thirsk is on the IGI, which is better than nothing, but doesn't show any likely entries for Hairyes.
Mary from Italy
22-07-11, 14:26
No, I checked Thirsk and two or three of the nearby parishes on the IGI a while ago.
The legitimate son of an attorney in the mid 1800s is unlikely to spell his name more than one way, and would be likely to query any errors on his certificates. He is unlikely to marry in a register office at that period, as his father almost certainly belonged to the established church.
A register office marriage suggest either he was non-conformist, or he'd got the bride into trouble and had to marry her quickly.
I have instances of shotgun marriages, early death of bride & baby, where the widower then presents himself to the world as a single man. That's how he would be living, and how he would be perceived. The question of his status might not even come up if he were somewhere where nobody knew of his first wife.
hi i dont know if it significant but i have found a hannah whorley born in 1793 in brafferton,york 6 dec 1793. fathers richard whorley.dont know how signifcant it is.could you guys check please
also i may have found william when he was whorley.hes in 1841 cencus spelt worley. with his sister racheal,and thomas ,and elzabeth as parents. could the parents be looking after him as they married in 1829 after williams birth? could thomas be hannah wholrey sister looking after william after his mothers died?
sorry there in thirsk parish
also i may have found william when he was whorley.hes in 1841 cencus spelt worley. with his sister racheal,and thomas ,and elzabeth as parents. could the parents be looking after him as they married in 1829 after williams birth? could thomas be hannah wholrey sister looking after william after his mothers died?
If he was Whorley before his first marriage than I think he is the one in the Workhouse, illigitimate son of Hannah. That chid is a better fit for age, I think. The one who is with Thomas and Eliza is most likely their son, though it's not possible to be certain unless a baptism is found.
I've made a concerted effort to try and find Rachel Whorley and her children (Sarah 1845 and William 1851).
We already have Sarah and William in Thirsk WH in 1851 and a slightly possible sighting of Sarah in 1861 earlier on this thread. I started off looking for William as (hopefully lolololol!!) he should retain the same surname through his life :d
I still cannot find him in 1861, but there is a possible in 1871:
William Warley lodger 22 labourer b Thirsk, Yorks
living at Garden St, Middlesbrough, Co Durham.
RG10; Piece: 4892; Folio: 111; Page: 16o, the above person
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=DURRG10_4892_4895-0232&fn=William&ln=Warley&st=r&ssrc=&pid=29306844
So, the above person needs to be traced in 1861 either to eliminate him or to help us!
I couldn't find him after 1871 either.
Mary from Italy
23-07-11, 14:56
I had a look yesterday, and found a William Worley who was born in Sutton, Yorks, c. 1833 in some of the later censuses (1861, 1881 and 1891).
However, I'm pretty sure we can rule him out as being Hannah's child, because this appears to be him in 1841, with probable parents William and Mary, living in Sutton under Whitestone (near Thirsk, only 2 or 3 miles from Bagby). Haven't found a baptism for him, though.
hi there is a william worley on the 1861 cenus born 1833 and anther who could be his father.registration thirsk,north yorkshire.thanks for your continuing help with this case.ive been trying to find hannah again myself.its like shes dispeared into thin air!
I expect she died before 1837, Zoe, or was married before then so we can't recognise her.
Is the 1833 William the same one Mary speaks of in her last post? (#248)
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