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Hello all, my name is Tom, I've been researching my family for some time now but on a piecemeal basis.
Idon't at present have regular access to a computer, which makes things a little difficult, but the help I've recieved so far from other sites has been invaluable,and I am ever grateful for all assistance,past and present.
I'm not on any way an experienced geneaologist,so would ask for your patience if I ask any stupid/obvious questions. I am using a relative's computer while staying for a few days so don't have any of my notes with me, but there is one question I would like to put to you.
My maternal grandfather and his brother were illegitimate, and took their mothers surname, and I read somewhere about an affiliation order or similar, which is perhaps the only way forward on this. How and where do I begin to proceed with this?
Welcome to GF, Tom :)
Could you give us a rough date for the births of your grandfather and his brother and also what country they were born in. Thanks.
Hello to you Merry,my grandfather and his brother were born in Tarbock, Lancashire in 1879 and 1880.
kiterunner
29-06-11, 09:51
If there is any such order I think it would be at Lancashire Record Office. You can search their catalogue via A2A:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/
Welcome Tom and good luck with your search.
Olde Crone
29-06-11, 10:42
Unfortunately, by the 1880s, affiliation orders were being dealt with in the Magistrates Court mostly and these records were destroyed twenty years after the child reached 21, or whatever age was on the order.
You may be lucky and find the order, but I think it WILL be luck and nothing else.
Who do they say is their father on their marriage certs?
OC
If there is any such order I think it would be at Lancashire Record Office. You can search their catalogue via A2A:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/
Hello Kiterunner and thank you, I'll try that when I can.
Welcome Tom and good luck with your search.
Hi Kit, nice to meet you!
Unfortunately, by the 1880s, affiliation orders were being dealt with in the Magistrates Court mostly and these records were destroyed twenty years after the child reached 21, or whatever age was on the order.
You may be lucky and find the order, but I think it WILL be luck and nothing else.
Who do they say is their father on their marriage certs?
OC Hello Olde Crone,I'm afraid I haven't actually had sight of their certificates, but if they took their mother's maiden name,I can only assume illegitimacy surely?
I would never assume anything and ALWAYS BUY THE CERTIFICATE, especially for your direct line. You really don't want to hear all the stories people have to tell about how much it cost them in time and money when they didn't get a certificate because they 'didn't need to' lol :rolleyes:
What's the situation on the 1881 census?
It appears you don't have the birth cert(s) either? Have you checked there is only one index entry for them at birth? It has been known for father's to appear on the cert even when the parents are not married in which case there will be two index entries - I have such in my own tree in 1879!
Please feel free to tell us who they are, if you like. You never know what ideas might be generated, but it's more difficult when thinking of any random case rather than a specific one.
I don't know if they were listed as b Tarbock in 1881, but all the male children listed as born there and aged 3 and under are living with married parents, except two, and neither of those two have a brother in the same household of the right age. Obviously this doesn't really mean a thing, but it has made me interested. :rolleyes:
It occurs to me that you don't have their marriage or birth certs, but you know they took their mother's surname. So, is that through family heresay? Very dangerous ground!!!!! lol
kiterunner
29-06-11, 11:54
Hello Olde Crone,I'm afraid I haven't actually had sight of their certificates, but if they took their mother's maiden name,I can only assume illegitimacy surely?
Even if they were illegitimate, it is possible that one or other or both of them might give father's name on their marriage certificate. Or sometimes there is a garbled version of the father's name, with the correct first name but the mother's surname (e.g. John Smith was illegitimate, parents William Brown and Ann Smith, but on his marriage cert it says his father was William Smith.) Definitely worth getting all the marriage certs and birth certs, plus looking in the parish register for baptisms, just in case there is any extra info on any of those.
Though I should add that sometimes on the marriage cert they give a made-up father's name to hide the fact they were illegitimate, or give their stepfather's name.
I have 2 something great grandmas who are illegitimate, although I was lucky and the parents did marry at some point. Both had the father's surname as their middle name and both named her father on her marriage certificate.
For one of them they also had illegitimate younger siblings with the father's surname as a middle name. Once the parents married the younger ones dropped mum's surname altogether.
Hi, thanks everybody for your help.I take the point that certificates would make life easier, but due to financial constraints,I have so far had to use the free sites for my research (I have also had some very generous help from various people).I will have to see the relevant certs in the near future, but in the meantime I shall explain a little more detail.
My great grandmother, Jane Pilkington was born in 1857 in Huyton Quarry, Lancs.Her first son Elijah Pilkington was born Tarbock,1879, her second (my grandfather) Joseph Henry Edward Pilkington,1880, Tarbock.
Without referring to my notes (left at home)she is at home with her parents in Cronton in 1881, the boys shown as 'sons' of the head.She married in Whiston 1883 and appears to have moved with her husband (Reuben Varley) and my grandfather to live in service in Fulwood Park, Liverpool.Elijah remained living in Cronton until marrying in 1901.Jane had two children with Varley, only one surviving.Reuben Varley died in Liverpool Consuption hospital in 1889, and if my memory serves me well, she re-maried in 1891 in St. Helens and emigrated in 1905 to America with her new family.
My grandfather married in 1904, and had one son, he was widdowed in 1909 and spent time in America and ultimately married my grandmother in 1916 in Whiston.
I may have got carried away a little there, sorry!,does any of this help?
kiterunner
29-06-11, 16:39
I can't see any entry for the family listed on A2A so it doesn't look likely that there was an order against the father.
Joseph's second marriage is transcribed on the FamilySearch website with no father's name, I can't find a transcription of his first marriage online, though, nor Elijah's, so you would need to get copies of their marriage certificates to see whether father's name is filled in on those. I can't find baptisms for them online either but perhaps they were baptised at a church whose records aren't online yet.
It doesn't look as though Reuben Varley left a will.
I'm afraid I can't think of anything else at the moment that might help.
Mary from Italy
29-06-11, 20:34
Has anyone ever checked the baptism entries for Joseph and Elijah? They occasionally show the name of the reputed father.
You should be able to view them free of charge at the local Record Office if you're in Lancs.
No, I can't either, really. (EDIT sorry, was following Kate's post!)
Tom, are you saying Jane married Reuben Varley who was married to Alice in 1881? Have you found what happened to Alice?
Thank you Kiterunner, and M.from I,appreciate your help.
Merry,Alice must have died at some point after the 1891 census, and (obviously) Reuben's re-marriage to Jane in 1893,so I'm approximating 1892.
Think you mean 1881-1883. "Must have" should read "may have"!! I don't see a death registration.
I have seen baptisms n Ancestry for Reuben and Jane's two children, but none for Jane's two.
Tarbock is in the parish of Huyton, I think.
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 08:38
I wonder if this is Alice's death?
Deaths Jun 1881
VARLEY Alice 62 Wirral 8a 279
Thank you Kiterunner, and M.from I,appreciate your help.
Merry,Alice must have died at some point after the 1891 census, and (obviously) Reuben's re-marriage to Jane in 1893,so I'm approximating 1892. Did I mention my notes were at home?!,( no excuse though)sorry-
Reuben and Alice are in Litherland, Lancs in 1881, and by 1883, Reuben and Jane were wed, so she 'may' have died in 1882.
I wonder if this is Alice's death?
Deaths Jun 1881
VARLEY Alice 62 Wirral 8a 279 Ihad Alice as born c1823, but as they moved around a fair bit,and their children were born in Liverpool and cheshire,you are more than likely correct Mary.
Oooh, could be, Mary. I didn't notice which district they were in for the 1881 census. I wouldn't worry about her age as hers and Reuben's varied a lot across the various censuses.
garstonite
30-06-11, 11:54
Oooh, could be, Mary. I didn't notice which district they were in for the 1881 census. I wouldn't worry about her age as hers and Reuben's varied a lot across the various censuses.
They were in Litherland ,Liverpool
17 Seaforth Vale
Reuben Varley head aged 54 born Branham,York
Alice Varley aged 58 ,born St Michaels ,Lancashire
allan
Thank you everybody for your help,I initially intended to ask your help with my grandfather's apparent bastardy, but I don't think I am going to acheive too much without seeing the relevant certificates as previously discussed.
I am more or less up to scratch re Jane and Reuben,including their children (more anon),however,( and please don't think I am in any way ungrateful for your efforts so far) would it be in order for me to change boats mid stream,as it were?
If nobody minds,I would very much appreciate some help with the Varley connection.
Jane and Reuben had two children that I know of-Florence born 1884, died at four months old, and Reuben born 1885.Both children were born while they were in service (Reuben was again a coachman) in Fulwood Park, Aigburth.
I have managed to follow Reuben jnr in his travels, but with your indulgence, will return to him later.
Reuben had two children to his first wife Alice, John,c1851-3, born Liverpool, and Mary c1855?,again Liverpool,which means that my grandfather had three half-siblings?(even I'm getting confused now).
I'm trying to do this without the aid of my notes, so forgive any errors.
John Varley had three children- William c1877,Margaret? c1878, both born Liverpool, and Alice c1879/, born Acton,Cheshire.
The 1881 census has them in Poole, Cheshire, but there I've come unstuck.
If I could trace the children of John Varley, that would be terrific
To return to Jane and Reuben's son, Reuben jnr,he went to the USA with Jane and his stepfather,and when Jane died in 1937, he returned to England, his stated destination being the family home in Cronton.This is where I have lost him, I have a possible marriage, and a possible death, but without certificates, I'm stumped.
I think I have possibly gone over the top this time, and if you can make any headway with all of this, good luck to you.
John Varley and his wife and children are in Singleton, Lancs in 1891:
RG12; Piece: 3457; Folio 116; Page 13
and Mary is a widow in the same place in 1901:
RG13; Piece: 3979; Folio: 23; Page: 7
Had you checked this is the right John Varley, as there's more than one born around the same time in Liverpool?
Mary from Italy
30-06-11, 16:49
Thank you everybody for your help,I initially intended to ask your help with my grandfather's apparent bastardy, but I don't think I am going to acheive too much without seeing the relevant certificates as previously discussed.
As I said earlier, you could have a look for the baptisms of Joseph and Elijah if you have time to visit the Lancs Record Office, which I believe is in Preston.
Lancashire Records Office is closed until October
John Varley and his wife and children are in Singleton, Lancs in 1891:
RG12; Piece: 3457; Folio 116; Page 13
and Mary is a widow in the same place in 1901:
RG13; Piece: 3979; Folio: 23; Page: 7Hello Merry,if you have John and Mary, with their children-William,Margaret, and Alice, it looks good,as William and Margaret were born in Weeton-Mary was born in Garstang and there are family connections in the Fylde area also.
I've found a death in Fleetwood in 1900, of one John Varley,aged 46 years, =birth c 1854?.
Also found a death in Fleetwood in 1895 of an Alice Varley, aged 18 years= c 1877?
I know I haven't seen any certificates, but until I am in a position to alter the situation, I can only take this route for the time being.
Regards, Tom.
As I said earlier, you could have a look for the baptisms of Joseph and Elijah if you have time to visit the Lancs Record Office, which I believe is in Preston. Thank you for that M. from I,that will go on my list of 'things to do'.
Lancashire Records Office is closed until OctoberHello to you Hopeful, and thank you for that.
I know I haven't seen any certificates, but until I am in a position to alter the situation, I can only take this route for the time being.
Fair enough, but you also should note there were two John Varley's b in Liverpool within two years of each other, so unless you have eliminated the other one, you need to take care! lol
garstonite
01-07-11, 09:36
John Varley born 19th march 1852 -babtised 21st March 1852 at St Anthonys,Liverpool
parents John and Jane
can`t find the other babtism - unless it`s this, and he was known as John
Walter John Fleetwood Varley christened 25th April 1852 at St Peter ,Liverpool
parents Nugent Augustus Fleetwood Varley and Louisa Rowe
allan
John Varley born 19th march 1852 -babtised 21st March 1852 at St Anthonys,Liverpool
parents John and Jane
can`t find the other babtism - unless it`s this, and he was known as John
Walter John Fleetwood Varley christened 25th April 1852 at St Peter ,Liverpool
parents Nugent Augustus Fleetwood Varley and Louisa Rowe
allan Hi allan, the John Varley I'm concerned with should be the son of Reuben Varley and Alice (nee Parkinson),I just hope I've not gone off course with this.
Hello again,I've found my man!,born Aug/09/1852-His father Reuben ((and mother Alice) living at 1 Upper Hampton St, Toxteth Pk, and working as a cabman.Looking at the houses. it probably was a mews/coachmans cottage.
I have also found John's children and will spend some time rooting about to hopefully arrive at some living relatives!
Thank you all for your help, I may ask for it again in the near future, so cheerio for now.Tom.
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