Elizabeth Brown (FFFFM - Wk 32)

[borobabs]

Name - "official" name and what they were known as
Elizabeth Brown

Date and place of birth
Abt 1774 I have down the 3 Jan 1774 I got this from Linda Herriot
Who also found all kids baptisms on Hugh Wallis’s site

Names of parents
???

Date and place of baptism - if applicable
???

Details of each of his or her marriages - if any
James Johnson think Bilston about 1801

Occupation(s) - if any
???

Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on (if s/he lived in census times!).
Have one found her on the 1 with her son John I think 1841

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 1002; Book: 9; Civil Parish: Kinver; County: Staffordshire; Enumeration District: 5; Folio: ; Page: 1; Line: 15; GSU roll: 474629.

Date, place and cause of death
????

Date and place of burial.
????

Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable
Memorial inscription - if any
???

[borobabs]

Names of children born to Eliabeth and James are ;;;

John b 1802
James b 1805
Anne b 1808
Francis Brown b 1813
Esther Brown b 1815
Elizabeth b1817

[kiterunner]

So is this the family you found in 1841, or am I looking at the wrong family? :confused: These don't look like the right people?

Whittington, Kinver, Staffs
John Johnson 40 Stocktaker No
Ann do 40 No
Mary Do 10 Yes
John Do 5 Yes
Elizabeth Johnson 60 No
Sarah Johnson 25 No
Eliza Johnson 20 No
Thomas Johnson 20 Stocktaker No

[borobabs]

Yes it was Kate dont you think thats them ????dam

[kiterunner]

Well, you don't have a Sarah, Eliza and Thomas in your list of Elizabeth's children, plus John should be born in county, so no, I don't think so.

Also, how do you know that Elizabeth's maiden name was Brown if you don't have her marriage? I know that some of her children had Brown as a middle name but that could be from somewhere else in the family, it doesn't have to be their mother's maiden name.

[borobabs]

I dont Kate think it was Just Linda finding the birth of elizabeth Brown in right place that would fit in with Kids it was such long time ago and she gave me details over Skype not via anymail that I kept ;;

[borobabs]

I was just surmising that those where Johns kids sorry but is a possibility isn't it???:

[kiterunner]

It seems more likely they're his brothers and sisters because of the order in which they're listed, but I suppose it's possible.

[borobabs]

I have looked through most of the Johnsons in 1841 and they all have what I could term family names so really stuck with finding anything out about Elizabeth and James ;;;far to many Johnsons ,,had run of good luck that they where all roll turners after this generation;;;

[borobabs]

Just nudging this Linda Herriot found the children of James and Elizabeth through hugh wallis site site , (thanks Merry for reminding me ) so can anyone find anything out about them for me ??

Ah just saw that I had already but that down ,,,dam

[borobabs]

I have found a Elizabeth living with son John in 1841

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 1002; Book: 9; Civil Parish: Kinver; County: Staffordshire; Enumeration District: 5; Folio: ; Page: 1; Line: 15; GSU roll: 474629.

[kiterunner]

Isn't that the same census entry we've already discussed on this thread, Babs?

[borobabs]

Oh dear yes it is , I have now found most of the childrens baptisms from this site ;;

http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/resources/indexes

[kiterunner]

Okay, so they were baptised at Bilston St Leonard's:
John Johnson 28 Nov 1802
James Johnson 12 May 1805
Anne Johnson 10 Jan 1808
Francis Brown Johnson 9 Sep 1813
Esther Brown Johnson 12 May 1815 father's occupation Maltster and Baker.

There is also a Jane Johnson baptism 16 Nov 1794 and a couple of burials of children called James Johnson, son of James and Elizabeth - one 14 Jan 1798 and one 8 Dec 1801.

[borobabs]

Oh Cheers for that Kate , didnt get chance last night to look into any more for them , did you find them on that site pages as I screen grabbed the Johnsons so I could keep it for future reference ???

[borobabs]

Just wish I could het that generation back with them ;;

[kiterunner]

Yes, I got it from the site that you posted up, Babs.

[borobabs]

Thanks Kate must make time to go back and have another good luck round it ,,shame theres a lot missing from it though

[kiterunner]

The father of the Elizabeth who was baptised in 1817 was an Iron Master, according to the transcription on that Wolverhampton History site, so probably not the same family as Francis Brown Johnson (1813) and Esther Brown Johnson (1815) whose father was a baker. Of course it could be a mistranscription or a mistake in the original.

[kiterunner]

Okay, this looks likely to be Francis Brown Johnson as his occupation is Roll Turner! So he is bound to be your James jr's brother, isn't he? I expect you've seen this before, though. It looks vaguely familiar to me.

1841 Shiffnal, Shropshire
Francis Johnson 20 Roll Turner N
Martha Do 20 N

1851 Shiffnal, Shropshire
Francis Johnson Head M 36 Roll Turner Stafford Bilston
Elizabeth Johnson Wife M 29 Salop Lilleshall

1861 Wrockwardine Wood, Shropshire
Francis Johnson Head Mar 46 Roll Turner at Forge Staffordshire Bilston
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 37 Salop Lilleshall
Francis Hopkins Nephew 17 Pattern Maker at Foundry Cheshire Calvley

1871 Gateshead, Durham
Frank Johnson Head Mar 56 Iron Worker Staffordshire Bilston
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 47 Shropshire St Georges

1881 still in Gateshead
Francis Johnson Head Mar 66 Roll Turner (Iron) Staffordshire Bilston
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 57 Shropshire Pains Lane
Agnes M Williams Grand-niece 10 Scholar Do Do

Francis Johnson death Jan-Mar 1884 Gateshead age 70.

[kiterunner]

Oh, it looks as though Francis Hopkins' mother was called Esther, so she must be Esther Brown Johnson. Calveley in Cheshire was in Bunbury parish, and there is this baptism on FamilySearch:

Francis Hopkins baptised 6 Aug 1843 Bunbury, Cheshire, parents Thomas and Esther. They also had James 1838, Martha 1840, Thomas 1842, Samuel 1845 and Esther 1847.

Anyway, that sorts Francis and Esther out; the others might not be so easy with such common names.

The marriage looks likely to be Thomas Hopkins / Esther Johnson Apr-Jun 1838 West Bromwich. There is an Esther Hopkins death in 1847 but there is no age shown on Cheshire BMD so I'm not sure whether it's Esther senior or junior. I haven't found the family in 1851 yet.

[kiterunner]

Oops, forgot to post up the Hopkins family in 1841:
Bunbury, Cheshire
Thomas Hopkins 35 Brick maker N
Esther Do 25 N
Leonard Do 10 Y
James Do 2 Y
Martha Do 1 Y

[borobabs]

Cor you had me baffled there Kate lol , been babysitting all morning so just saw this and went to bed early last night ,,,
Yes thats the right family but didnt have Esthers marriage or anything ,,

All the Johnsons where Roll turners well nearly all right through to my G Grandfather who well ?? worked in works and all sorts and then grandad well dont want to say much about him , Dad said he was drunkard and waster ;;;pass

So how is this going to get us back a gen Kate ??? or am I missing something , if so sorry but shattered

[kiterunner]

So how is this going to get us back a gen Kate ??? or am I missing something , if so sorry but shattered

Just nudging this Linda Herriot found the children of James and Elizabeth through hugh wallis site site , (thanks Merry for reminding me ) so can anyone find anything out about them for me ??


I must have misunderstood this post - I thought you wanted to find out about James and Elizabeth's children? But anyway, we needed to find their children on the censuses in case one of them had a parent or other relative with them!

Also I was hoping we could find James and Elizabeth's burials to see how old they were when they died but I couldn't see any likely burials at Bilston on that Wolverhampton history site. So since we haven't found their marriage either, I can't think of anything else that might help. Hopefully the post-1754 Bilston marriages are going to be added to that site some time?

[kiterunner]

Oh, I just remembered something - James and Hannah Johnson have a Hannah Hill age 12 with them in 1841 - do you know how she fits in, Babs?

[borobabs]

No I dont Kate I have ften wondered but couldnt find a Hill marriage for any of the daughters

[borobabs]

Also I was hoping we could find James and Elizabeth's burials to see how old they were when they died but I couldn't see any likely burials at Bilston on that Wolverhampton history site. So since we haven't found their marriage either, I can't think of anything else that might help. Hopefully the post-1754 Bilston marriages are going to be added to that site some time?[/QUOTE]

Yes I hope they do I was even looking through a Staffordshire site last night to buy the records but couldnt find Bilston ones and didnt know which area it came under and there isnt a West Brom listed either ;;

[kiterunner]

Just had some more thoughts - you could get Esther's marriage certificate to see where she was living and who the witnesses are, and whether it says "deceased" for her father.

Also looked on the apprenticeship records on ancestry and it has 16 Sep 1772 Jas Johnson, baker, apprentice Richard Johnson. Might be connected somehow?

[borobabs]

Have we got the GRO nuber for there marriage Kate ,,sorry think I should leave this for today just to tired to cenctrate properly , Im sorry ,,will re read tomorrow and try to make some sence of it all ;;

[kiterunner]

It's Apr-Jun 1838 West Bromwich vol 18 p 657, Thomas Hopkins / Esther Johnson.

[borobabs]

Thanks for that Kate and here's Estere in 1851

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1993; Folio: 814; Page: 28; GSU roll: 87394-87395

1861

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2022; Folio: 121; Page: 11; GSU roll: 542904

1871

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 2977; Folio: 21; Page: 35; GSU roll: 838864

[borobabs]

Had a nana nap and awake now lol ,,,