Information on Death Cert.Question

[Punchs Mum]

Have just received the Death Cert. for an Uncle that died in London in 1971. I was expecting his wife to be the informant as I know he pre deceased her.

However, the informant is a name I do not recognise and along side her name the qualification section says ' causing the body to be cremated' and then gives the usual address, I assume, of the informant.

Cause of death states Coronary occlusion by atheroma
Certified by (a name) Coroner for City of London
after a Post Mortem without inquest.

Not being very familiar with this type of Death Certificate, can anybody explain it to me?

Thanks in anticipation!

Lesley

[kiterunner]

"Causing the body to be cremated" means the death was registered by someone who wasn't present at the death and wasn't a relative but registered the death so that the funeral could take place. The address could be their work address. Maybe the wife wasn't able to register the death herself.

[Phoenix]

You get that sort of wording where people are living in an old people's home or other institution, so those who have been caring for them tend to do the legal work.

Was your uncle elderly when he died?

[Punchs Mum]

No Phoenix, he was 57 at the time of death.

Lesley

[Olde Crone]

Sometimes the Undertaker registers the death, where family members are too distraught to do it.

I recently registered my friend's death and I appear as "causing the body to be cremated" because I am her executor and I was making the funeral arrangements and paying for them out of the deceased estate.

OC

[Merry]

My OH has registered quite a few deaths and some of them have had this on the cert when he was not a relative and was not present at the death. In these cases his actual relationship to the dec'd had generally been something-in-law, or friend, rather than there being any 'business' involvement such as working in a nursing home, or whatever.

[Punchs Mum]

Thanks for replies!

Looks like I will never know who the informant was then! I do know that his wife died shortly after him.....a matter of months if I remember rightly.


Lesley

[Val in Oz]

Lesley - could there be some paperwork re the post mortem I wonder that might help fill in some of the missing details? It might be worth investigating that avenue - just in case.

[Punchs Mum]

Val, I am not sure about that as it would come under his Medical notes surely and the 100 year rule would come in place re that.

I did think about checking newspapers but the Post Mortem was without Inquest which I would think meant that there was no suspicous circumstances.

Am happy to be corrected if anyone knows different.

Lesley.

[Olde Crone]

Lesley

I think you are right - a post mortem is just a medical examination after death and would contain only medical information about him, nothing else. So even if you COULD access his medical files (unlikely) it wouldn't help you.

OC

[Uncle John]

When my father died, the coroner was informed, simply because he'd had a fall a few weeks before and the doctor wasn't 100% certain of the cause of death. The coroner's officer explained it all, and in the end there wasn't much of a delay.

[maggie_4_7]

Have just received the Death Cert. for an Uncle that died in London in 1971. I was expecting his wife to be the informant as I know he pre deceased her.

However, the informant is a name I do not recognise and along side her name the qualification section says ' causing the body to be cremated' and then gives the usual address, I assume, of the informant.

Cause of death states Coronary occlusion by atheroma
Certified by (a name) Coroner for City of London
after a Post Mortem without inquest.

Not being very familiar with this type of Death Certificate, can anybody explain it to me?

Thanks in anticipation!

Lesley

They had a post mortem because he probably wasn't under any doctor for his obvious progressive heart disease, he probably had no idea how bad it was. So for all intense and purposes died suddenly he probably collapsed. So by law there would be a post mortem but once they established the cause of death if not suspicious or uncertain wouldn't need an inquest.

The exact same thing happened to my two uncles - both collapsed and died in the 60s within two weeks of each other - both had post mortems because they hadn't seen a doctor recently and had no idea they had a ticking time bomb in their heads. Both have the same terminology on their death certs.

As for why his wife wasn't the informant the clue might be (you say she died soon after) perhaps she was ill or in a terrible state and so the coroner or herself might have appointed someone to do the paperwork after the post mortem. Maybe a family friend or a neighbour.

Edit to say: Have you checked out the name of the person FH Wise i.e. any clues where she was born, married or died?

[Punchs Mum]

Maggie

At the moment I have no subs. to any research sites but have just had an offer from Ancestry of Premium membership for the price of the Essential membership, so I may take up their offer.

Bearing in mind though that this death was in 1971 I am not expecting to be able to find much about the informant. There is an address on the Death Cert. which I assume is the address of informant. However, this person could still be alive.

I did take a look on 192.com though!

Lesley

[maggie_4_7]

Is it a City of London address or Greater London or somewhere else entirely?

[Punchs Mum]

Not familiar with London but it is N.W.10 if that means anything to you.

The deceased, my Uncle, worked in the City of London

Lesley

[Olde Crone]

It could also have been a workmate. Maggie's post has reminded me of a chap who dropped dead at work. The widow was utterly distraught and could do nothing. Workmate did all the paperwork and arranged the funeral and so on.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

Not familiar with London but it is N.W.10 if that means anything to you.

The deceased, my Uncle, worked in the City of London

Lesley

It's Willesden/Kensal Green. So he died at work then or did he live in the City of London as well?

[Punchs Mum]

He was a Housekeeper on the Death Cert.

I was always lead to beleive that he was a Caretaker in a London Bank and therefore he would have lived in, I assume.

Lesley.

[Uncle John]

Housekeeper does mean a caretaker (often live-in) in a commercial building.

[Olde Crone]

There you are then, probably a work colleague.

OC

[Gert in Oz]

Not sure if this will help, when my dad died in 1966, he had a post mortem without inquest, the reason given to us was, as he had been in hospital less than 24 hours it was law, he died of chronic bronchitis and emphesema (sp)

[maggie_4_7]

He was a Housekeeper on the Death Cert.

I was always lead to beleive that he was a Caretaker in a London Bank and therefore he would have lived in, I assume.

Lesley.

What was the location of death i.e. when or where died, hospital or address?

[Punchs Mum]

Death Cert. Says as place of death , 20/24 Northgate House,City of London' he died 11/7/1971.

Their marriage Cert. 1961 says they were resident 20/24 Moorgate EC.2 That makes me wonder now if the death cert. should have been Moorgate not Northgate?

I know that the information given at the Registrars is only as accurate as the informant can give.

Lesley

[Margaret in Burton]

Is it a scanned copy or hand written or typed?

[Nell]

According to google there's a Northgate House at 20-28 Moorgate.

[maggie_4_7]

It was Northgate House 20-24 Moorgate EC2

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/our_services/development_planning/planning_apps/register/data/06/0690.htm

Was redeveloped in 1988 by the Bank of Tokyo it seems.

Not sure what it was in 1971 yet.

[Olde Crone]

Snap Nell!

It appears it was a multi-occupancy block of offices, mostly housing bankers, particularly "Sale and Co", of whom I have never heard, and neither has google, lol.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

The Union Insurance Company were there until 1957...

[maggie_4_7]

Death Cert. Says as place of death , 20/24 Northgate House,City of London' he died 11/7/1971.

Their marriage Cert. 1961 says they were resident 20/24 Moorgate EC.2 That makes me wonder now if the death cert. should have been Moorgate not Northgate?

I know that the information given at the Registrars is only as accurate as the informant can give.

Lesley

So the actual address is Northgate House, 20-24 Moorgate EC2 London.

Don't know what was there in 1971 but as you thought a financial/insurance institution. I have walked passed there many a time.

Then I expect the person who registered the death was a worker of the company your uncle was caretaking for if not a family member.

[Punchs Mum]

Thanks for that Information Maggie.

I didn't realise that Northgate House was in Moorgate! It certainly does appear that the informant was possibly a colleague who also worked there. As I said previously, I am not familiar with London at all.

Am tempted now to get his Widows death cert but it is an expensive way to satisfy curiousity!

Thanks to all who have offered suggestions and have replied to my original posting on this thread.

[Punchs Mum]

Oooops everybody! Sorry- Didn't see all the postings and replies before the last one Maggie posted!!!

Yes, I do recall being told that it was some sort of foreign bank offices he worked for as a Caretaker but which one, I do not know. As usual, there is no one left to ask now.

If only we could turn back time sometimes. I think we would all ask a lot more questions to our parents/Grandparents.

Thanks again everyone. Lesley

[Merry]

The Times in May 1969 mentions:

Brokers, Laing and Cruickshank, Northgate House, 20/24 Moorgate, London, EC2

and in May 1975 the same address for The Bank of Tokyo Trust Company, London Branch.

[Punchs Mum]

Have had a quick word with a cousin of mine with no interest in Family History! He seems to think (without me prompting him) that it may have been a Japanese bank which would be about right. The Bank of Tokyo seems to be the obvious one then if it was there in 1975.

Lesley

[Olde Crone]

Oh, Sale and co was actually Sale Continuation Ltd, an intermediary holding bank for letters of credit and bills of lading etc, which went bankrupt and was tried for fraud in the late 1960s - the case dragged on for ever.

Not that that helps much, but it does point to northgate House being a series or suites of offices related to banking companies. The Housekeeper may have been employed by the building management company - it was fairly common for these blocks of offices to have flats and guest rooms etc, which might be why he was called housekeeper rather than caretaker.

OC

[Janet]

There was a solicitor, Arthur Benjamin & Cohen, at 20-24 Moorgate that was listed on a death notice printed in the London Gazette, 13 October 1953. Could your uncle's solicitor have registered his death?

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/39986/pages/5489/page.pdf