Lost baptism

[ElizabethHerts]

The Family Search has this baptism:

Name: Isabella Clay
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 20 Jan 1788
Baptism/Christening Place: SWINSTEAD,LINCOLN,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Samuel Clay
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C03231-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 508057
Reference Number:
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

It has Elizabeth Clay also baptised the same day to the same parents.

Isabella Clay was OH's 3xgreat-grandmother and I'm hoping this is her baptism.

HOWEVER, I'm using the Lincs to the Past website to verify my research and I have hit a snag!

http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=777018&iid=231338

I have been searching the pages of the Swinstead register but I can't find these two baptisms. So either I'm being dumb or the information from the IGI is incorrect! Some baptisms for Samuel and Elizabeth Clay turn up in the adjacent parish of Edenham, but I haven't checked those out yet.

[kiterunner]

Strange. I can't see it on there either. Could it be taken from the Bishop's Transcripts? I haven't used the Lincs to the Past site much so I don't know how to find them if they are on there.

[ElizabethHerts]

Kate, I was wondering if it was taken from the BTs too.

I think I will probably be spending the morning looking at the parents Samuel and Elizabeth.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, if you use Hugh Wallis to track the batch number, it is from a collection of Bishops transcripts.

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

OC, thanks for that, it's really helpful to know.

I wonder why it wasn't entered in the original register - unless it is on a page removed from the actual date.

[Olde Crone]

I hate BTs personally because they have a habit of throwing doubt on what you've found.

The bishop's transcript was supposed to be written up once a year and was supposed to be an exact copy of the PR. Some Vicars, churchwardens, parish clerks, etc, however, kept a running entry so they didn't have to do it all in one big splurge at the end of the year.

It is often very difficult to tell which was really the "original" entry and certainly in my experience stuff gets left off one but entered on the other. GENERALLY - and that's a very loose generally - the PR is more detailed and therefore possibly more accurate than the BT.

I cautiously think it unlikely that they would actually make up an event and put it on the BT, so in that case you have to assume the entry was missed off the PR and written straight onto the BT?

OC

[kiterunner]

I love BT's because I'm transcribing some records for FreeREG where the PR's for some years are almost impossible to make out, and often the BT's for the same year are legible enough to make it possible.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks again OC. I think we have had discussions like this in the past, which have a habit of going in one ear and out the other with me, unfortunately.

It is certainly strange if the BTs have the event but not the PR. However, as you say, they wouldn't make it up (how could they?). It seems that this couple married in Edenham in 1787, had Isabella and Elizabeth in the adjacent parish of Swinstead in 1787/1788, and then returned to Edenham for further children.

It has come to my notice that Elizabeth was probably pregnant when she married Samuel in June 1787 as the girls were baptized in January 1788. Perhaps she had them baptised at Swinstead to avoid gossip in her home parish of Edenham?

[Joan of Archives]

They were baptised at Edenham, isn't this them at the top of the page?

http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=782032&iid=214022

You have to do a parrot impersonation with your head sideways to be able to read it lol!

:d

[Joan of Archives]

By the way, seems like the daughters were called Elizabeth & Arrabella :rolleyes:

[ElizabethHerts]

Joan, thanks so much! SO the BTs got the wrong parish - they were baptised in Edenham like their siblings. Well done for spotting them - however ARRABELLA!

Perhaps not my girl after all. ;(

Unless the vicar made a mistake.

I keep leaving little messages asking the site to rotate the registers when they are like this.

[ElizabethHerts]

Name: Arrabella Clay
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 20 Jan 1788
Baptism/Christening Place: EDENHAM,LINCOLN,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Saml Clay
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02807-2
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 432475
Reference Number:
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Of course, I would have found her if I had known she was Arrabella.:)

[Joan of Archives]

I keep leaving little messages asking the site to rotate the registers when they are like this.

Hope so, I got a cricked neck now lol! :d

[Joan of Archives]

So who is Isabella baptised at Swinstead then? :confused:She most definitely doesn't appear in the PRs!

[ElizabethHerts]

So who is Isabella baptised at Swinstead then? :confused:She most definitely doesn't appear in the PRs!

I reckon the BTs are correct for the girls but with the wrong parish transcribed.

This is my Isabella Clay:

John Newton
married
Isabella Clay
18 July 1812 Braceby Lincolnshire

Isabella Newton
died 18 February 1855 Aged 68 years
Widow of John Newton Farm Labourer
Cause of death: Bronchitis about 3 weeks
Informant: Elizabeth Riest?
buried 22 February 1855
aged 67
Calculated year of birth: 1788
Place of burial: Ropsley
Dedication: St Peter
County: Lincolnshire
Burial entry no. 471 Page 59 of the register (Ropsley)
Isabella Newton Abode: London Buried Feb 22 Age 67


So it looks as though she was born c. 1788 like this one.

[Joan of Archives]

Have you got them on the census for 1841 & 1851 for reference? Just wondering how you know where she was born?

[ElizabethHerts]

Joan, I don't know where she was born, unfortunately.

This is her in 1841 with two of her children. Her husband John died in 1839.

1841 Census
HO107; Piece 621; Book: 15; Civil Parish: Ropsley; County: Lincolnshire; Enumeration District: 9; Folio: 9; Page: 13; Line: 24;
Isaa Newton 50 Ind Y
Ann 25 – Y
Charles 13 Y


I have never been able to find her in 1851.

She was in London in 1855 when she died. Her son Charles married there on 8th February and Isabelle died on 18th February.

I don't know if she was just visiting when she died - I suspect that was the case.

I can't find her son Charles Austin Newton in 1851 either.

[Joan of Archives]

Take a look at this Ann Newton in 1851, the age would be right if she were Isabella's daughter, plus look at the family at the top of the page :rolleyes:

Class: HO107; Piece: 2103; Folio: 108; Page: 51; GSU roll: 87732.

[kiterunner]

I've got an ancestor who could never make up her mind whether she was an Arabella or an Isabella.

[ElizabethHerts]

Joan, Isabella's daughter Ann married Simon Walker in 1844 and then they moved to Staindrop in Co. Durham, so unfortunately that one isn't her.

Clay seems to be a fairly common surname in Lincolnshire, unfortunately.

[Joan of Archives]

So is Newton lol!!! :d:d

[ElizabethHerts]

So is Newton lol!!! :d:d

Joanie, Newton is common everywhere! :D (But don't tell my mother-in-law!):d

[Joan of Archives]

I know it's probably just coincidence but could this Elizabeth be the informant of Isabella's death? And could it be her sister??

1851

Class: HO107; Piece: 2102; Folio: 153; Page: 13; GSU roll: 87731.

[Joan of Archives]

I think it is Elizabeth Priest actually :o

[ElizabethHerts]

Joanie, I don't know who the informant was specifically as her surname is unclear.

If any of Isabella/Arabella's family come up they would have been born in Edenham or district (assuming that Isabella and Arabella are the one and the same person).

[Joan of Archives]

Ah there's the rub though :rolleyes: Swinstead could well have been under the belt of Colsterworth; could it be that the vicar was absent from their parish church so they were baptised at Edenham maybe? :confused:

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I've got an ancestor who could never make up her mind whether she was an Arabella or an Isabella.

And just to muddy the waters a bit more, I've got a couple of Elizabeths sometimes recorded as Isabellas. (Isn't Isabella a Spanish form of Elizabeth??)

Jay