Can't find Alice

[Cheshirelass73]

I'm doing a bit of research for my sil her grandparents marriage is

Marriage: 26 Nov 1904 St Mary, Ince, Lancashire, England
James Mason - 21 Collier Bachelor of 55 Fogg's Lane
Alice Sharples - 21 Spinster of 16 Victoria Road
Groom's Father: William Mason, Dataller Groom’s mother Margaret Walsh
Bride's Father: Joshua Sharples, Collier
Witness: Thomas Mather; Lavinia Mather
Married by Banns by: J. A. Cooil
Register: Marriages 1897 - 1905, Page 232, Entry 463
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

I know these are the right people but I can't find Alice Sharples with a father called Joshua anywhere I've looked in bmd Ancestry and Lancashire Parish Records and she isn't showing on any census forms.

Any ideas?

[kiterunner]

Ooh, I've never seen a 20th century marriage cert that gives the name of the groom's mother! Any idea why it's there? Which column is it in? (Sorry, I know that won't help with finding Alice, off to look now...)

[Cheshirelass73]

Oh I must have typed it in so I wouldn't forget it

[kiterunner]

Just thought - have you found them on the 1911 census?

[kiterunner]

The witnesses Thomas Mather and Lavinia Mather look to be relatives of the groom as there is a possible Thomas Mather / Lavinia Mason marriage in 1904.

[Cheshirelass73]

No Can't find her

[kiterunner]

Do you know of any children they should have on the 1911 census, Chris?

[Cheshirelass73]

This is what my sil wants to find out. that marriage cert is all I can find

[Phoenix]

There's this possibility for 1901: RG13 piece 3563 folio 61 page 54

In 1911, it looks as if she's born in Ince, Wigan.

[kiterunner]

Ooh yes, on that 1901 entry the head's name is Josua Lloyd crossed out and replaced with John Sharples! A Coal Hewer Below Ground.

[Merry]

1911

James Mason head 28 m collier b Wigan
Alice Mason wife m 27 6,2,2,0 b Ince
Agnes 5 b Wigan and Fred 1 b can't read

18 Peace Street, something, something, Manchester

[kiterunner]

Fred's birthplace is Astley and the "something something" in the address is Gin Pit, Astley.

[Cheshirelass73]

What site is that on? please

[kiterunner]

I looked at them on ancestry, but I assume Merry found them on findmypast or the official 1911 census site as you can't search the 1911 very well on ancestry at the moment. So I only found them when I had Merry's info to use!

Lancashire - Astley - district 14 - image 492.

[kiterunner]

This is the Alice from 1901 in 1891, if you see what I mean:
82 Elephant Lane, St Helens
Phillip Wedgewood Head Mar 29 Coal Miner Haydock Lancs
Ellen Do Wife 30(? not sure as there is a lot of alteration) Prescot Lancs
John Sharples Boarder M 58 Coal Miner St Helens Lancs
Martha Do " M 54 Sutton Lancs
Alice Do " 7 Wigan Lancs.

[kiterunner]

They have a Josiah Lloyd with them as a boarder in 1901 age 47 born Stafford, Colliery Labourer, so maybe we should look for him in 1911 in case he turns out to become Alice's stepfather? I suppose the correction of John Sharples' name on the 1901 is because the enumerator started to write Josiah Lloyd in first. Except it does look like Josua where it's crossed out.

[Merry]

They were in Leigh district in 1911 and there are several Mason births with mmn Sharples after the census inc two who may be twins, but there are several Mason/Sharples marriages in the prev few years, so you can't say these are particularly likely to be siblings for Agnes and Fred.

[Cheshirelass73]

Thank you so much for your help.

My sil did mention gyn pits she said when she was a little girl she visited her granny there.

I've got plenty to work on now
Thanks again x

[Phoenix]

Something very strange going on, as this looks like John & Martha in 1881: RG11 piece 3774 folio 105 page 20

Note they have children Thomas & Alice (as well as Ann)

I wonder if Alice is actually Ann's daughter?

[kiterunner]

Oh yes, I forgot Ann is John's daughter Ann Sharples, a widow age 40 on the 1901 census so I thought she must be a daughter-in-law, but then when I looked at the 1881 they had an Ann but I forgot she shouldn't be their daughter! And that they shouldn't have an Alice yet! Well, of course, Ann could still have married a Sharples, but it's possible that Alice is her daughter by Josiah Lloyd - or that Josiah Lloyd married Ann later? Can anyone find Josiah (or Joshua) Lloyd in 1911?

[kiterunner]

Aha!!

This is Ann in 1891:
16 Wilson(?) Rd, Ince in Makerfield
Joshua Lloyd Head S 36 Coal Miner Staffordshire Bilston
Ann Sharples Lodger S 31 Lancashire St Helens
John ???? ??? 3 Scholar Do Ince
James ????? ??? 1 Do Do

It's very faint on ancestry so I can't make out if John and James are sons or lodgers, and what their surnames are. Is it any better on fmp?

[kiterunner]

Chris, I hope your sil is prepared to hear this kind of stuff!!

[Phoenix]

RG12 piece 3060 folio 50 page 25

[Phoenix]

snap, kite!

The boys are down as sons - though that might mean to Ann, not Joshua.

[Margaret in Burton]

Aha!!

This is Ann in 1891:
16 Wilson(?) Rd, Ince in Makerfield
Joshua Lloyd Head S 36 Coal Miner Staffordshire Bilston
Ann Sharples Lodger S 31 Lancashire St Helens
John ???? ??? 3 Scholar Do Ince
James ????? ??? 1 Do Do

It's very faint on ancestry so I can't make out if John and James are sons or lodgers, and what their surnames are. Is it any better on fmp?

I think it says son on FMP . I think it means sons to Ann

[kiterunner]

Thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if they were Joshua's sons too, though.

[Cheshirelass73]

There's a Joshua Lloyd living in the same street Wilson Street and he has a lodger Ann Sharples age 31 (?) she has two sons John 5 & James 1 and their father is not named.
Now I am confused

[kiterunner]

Chris, it looks as though Joshua Lloyd and Ann Sharples (daughter of John and Martha) were living together but didn't get married. John and Martha had a daughter Alice who was only a couple of years younger than Ann, much older than your sil's Alice, then your sil's Alice turns up as their daughter on the 1891 census, but it could be that she was really their granddaughter, and was Ann's daughter? If so then Joshua / Josiah Lloyd could be her father or kind of stepfather, so she would have given her father's name as Joshua when she got married, but if she didn't point out that his surname wasn't the same as hers, they would write Joshua Sharples down as his name.

[Cheshirelass73]

1901 Census
16 Wilson Street Ince

John Sharples (Joshua Lloyd) age 68

Martha (wife) 63

Ann daughter 40

Alice daughter 17

Thomas son 15

Granddaughters

Martha 9
Hannah 5
Elizabeth 2


Grandsons

James 11
Joseph 3
Josiah 7

Josiah Lloyd boarder 47

1891 Census

16 Wilson Road Ince

Joshua Lloyd head 31
Ann Sharples lodger 31
John T 5
James 1

John and James are Anns sons
no father's name given

The Alice who was 17 in 1901 would be the right one because she was 21 on her marriage cert in 1904

[kiterunner]

Oh, I hadn't realised it was the same house! So it was Joshua / Josiah Lloyd's house in 1891 and that's probably why his name was written as head in 1901 then crossed out and John Sharples' name written in. I'll see if any of them are at that address in 1911.

[kiterunner]

James Sharples age 21 and his wife Margaret are at no 6 Wilson St in 1911 but no 16 is a family called Hesketh.

[Cheshirelass73]

I don't know what my sil will make of all this.
That Ann was a widow with 6 or 7 children two with a man she wasn't married to and she still found time to spin cotton!

[kiterunner]

From the 1911 census site index:
Wigan
Ann Sharples 50
Martha Ellen Sharples 19
Josiha Sharples 17
Annah Sharples 15
Joseph Sharples 13
Elizabeth Sharples 11
Edith Sharples 9

Now I'll see if I can find the image for them on ancestry.

[kiterunner]

I don't know what my sil will make of all this.
That Ann was a widow with 6 or 7 children two with a man she wasn't married to and she still found time to spin cotton!

I don't think Ann was really a widow, Chris. They used to put that on the census for unmarried women with children to make them look more respectable.

[kiterunner]

1911 census, 21 Carr Street, Platt Bridge near Wigan
Thomas Lloyd Head 25 Married Coal Miner Ince Lancashire
Mary Emma Lloyd Wife 24 Married 6 yrs, 4 children, 2 living, Ince Lancashire
Ethel Lloyd Daughter 5 Ince Lancashire
Lilly Lloyd Daughter 1 Ince Lancashire

Then on the next form, same address, our questions are answered!!!:
Ann Sharples S. Occupier crossed out and replaced with Head, age 50, Widow, married 30 years, 10 children, 9 living, 1 dead, Housework, St Helens Lancashire

Next three lines filled in and crossed out
Alice Sharples Daughter 28 Married 7 years, 4 children, 2 living, 2 dead, Housework, Ince Lancashire
Thomas Sharples Son 25 Married 6 years, 4 children, 2 living, 2 dead, Coalminer, Ince
James Sharples Son 23 Married 2 years, no children Coalminer Ince

Now the rest, not crossed out:
Matha Ellen Sharples Daughter 19 Single Pit Brow Ince
Josiha Sharples Son 17 Single Collier Ince
Annah Sharples Daughter 15 Ring Spinner Ince
Joseph Sharples Son 13 Collier Ince
Elizabeth Sharples Daughter 11 School Ince
Edith Sharples Daughter 9 School Ince.

To get to the image on ancestry, it's Lancashire - civil parish Ince in Makerfield - enumaration district 25 - image 50 (image 48 for Thomas Lloyd.) You'll need to show it to your SIL! (Er, if you think she can cope with it)

[kiterunner]

In case you're waiting for me to finish updating post #35, it's done now.

[kiterunner]

Joshua Lloyd's death was registered Jan-Mar 1909 Wigan district, age 55.

[Phoenix]

That is brilliant, Kite! And presumably John T aged 5 in 1891 = Thomas.

[Cheshirelass73]

Thanks for all your help I do appreciate it.
I feel a bit cheeky coming on the forum asking for help when I can't give any in return x

[kiterunner]

Chris, don't worry, that's what we're here for!


I do so wish that all the 1911 census forms were like that! At least now you won't have to say to your SIL, "Well, I think Ann was Alice's mother but I'm not sure"; looking at the census there is absolutely no question.