View Full Version : James Kirk from New Zealand where was he born? etc
Sue at the seaside
08-06-11, 10:11
How am I going to find this out? My great Aunt married a New Zealander, James Kirk (Not of star ship enterprise fame) I only found this out yesterday! I'm told he was born in NZ and after the war returned to NZ without his wife (the trauma of war had changed him so much, the marriage didn't work!)
He was born probably pre 1910,
Married 1940 in Wiltshire - to Phyllis Swiney
assume he died in NZ
I would just love to know a little more on him. I know I should get the marriage cert, perhaps I will when there is a little more money.
Any ideas what I can do/where I can look at low/no cost
Do you have his marriage cert?
I can't remember what is on an English cert, but his father's name should be.
Might find something here, but it's not an uncommon name.
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Home/
Strangely there aren't that many, so the marriage cert might help if there is a middle name.
kiterunner
08-06-11, 12:07
He hasn't got a middle initial on the GRO marriage index, so I would say you will need the marriage cert, sorry. There are a couple of possible James Kirks on ship passenger lists to Australia on findmypast - one in 1948 age 41 and one in 1955 age 47 - or they could well both be the same person.
Ancestry has two James Kirks without middle names on the New Zealand Army WW2 Nominal Rolls but I'll PM you the info as whichever one isn't him could still be alive.
Update - I've found likely matches for them on the 1946 NZ e roll and the second of the two I sent you has a wife with him not called Phyllis, so probably not that one. The first of the two is on his own in 1946.
Sue at the seaside
08-06-11, 16:29
He hasn't got a middle initial on the GRO marriage index, so I would say you will need the marriage cert, sorry. There are a couple of possible James Kirks on ship passenger lists to Australia on findmypast - one in 1948 age 41 and one in 1955 age 47 - or they could well both be the same person.
Ancestry has two James Kirks without middle names on the New Zealand Army WW2 Nominal Rolls but I'll PM you the info as whichever one isn't him could still be alive.
Update - I've found likely matches for them on the 1946 NZ e roll and the second of the two I sent you has a wife with him not called Phyllis, so probably not that one. The first of the two is on his own in 1946.
I hadn't really thought he could possibly still be alive!
Thank you for that info, the first one is him. That was the only other thing I knew was that he had lived in Darnley Road. The same address as Wihelmina Corralie Adrienne Versigny. (remember her??) Totally a different family, that means there were 3 families in that house that married!
I do think for any more I will need to get the marriage cert!
Thanks so much for to you both looking
kiterunner
08-06-11, 16:34
Sue, I don't think he is still alive, it's the other James Kirk who could be.
kiterunner
08-06-11, 16:36
So now we know which one he is, this is the info from the WW2 nominal roll(1940) , in case anyone else comes up with some ideas to find his birth and / or death:
No 30071 , a Private in the 22 Wn, single, enlisted at Napier, occupation farm labourer, last address Pacific Hotel, Hastings, next of kin sister in London Miss M Walling, 29 Darnley Rd., Mare St., Hackney, London, England
kiterunner
08-06-11, 16:45
I'm sure we should be able to figure out something from the fact that his sister was Miss M Walling, but I haven't found anything on the NZ BMD's so far.
Sue at the seaside
08-06-11, 16:52
I'm sure we should be able to figure out something from the fact that his sister was Miss M Walling, but I haven't found anything on the NZ BMD's so far.
I've been wondering about that, why do they have different surnames when she is a Miss?? but then why was his wife's surname Swiney and her sister's Molloy, Different fathers!!!!! What a totally mixed up house!
kiterunner
08-06-11, 18:13
There's a file on him at the NZ Archives but I think you have to go there to view it. It is definitely him because of the service number:
Former Servicemen's Rehabilitation Files:
Kirk, James 1946-1947
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=14884891
I live in Napier and work in Hastings.......
It looks like there are at least 2 of them in the area, on in Napier who was retired in 1946 and at least one, maybe 2 who are farm workers.
In 1954 he is possibly a gardener
There is one who is a pensioner after 1963 and a war pensioner in 72, there is no woman at the address at any time. I have him alive on the electoral roll until 1978, but I need to go to work now.
I will look again tonight if he is not found by then!
kiterunner
08-06-11, 22:13
There are a couple of possible deaths on NZ BMD after 1978:
1987, dob 25 Feb 1904
1985, dob 1 Feb 1900
But NZ BMD doesn't show you the district so I don't know which is more likely.
Can't see a birth reg for either of those on NZ BMD though.
He was not buried in Hastings and not all Napier cemeteries are online, I am sure they used to be but some of them seem to have vanished. I will contact them and see why the main ones are no longer appearing. If it is the one we want he seems to have moved to Napier from Hastings and will probably be buried around here somewhere.
There is one buried in Hastings in 1955 but he is too old to be the one we want
kiterunner
09-06-11, 07:01
Could just be a coincidence, but there is a James Kirk birth registered Jan-Mar 1904 in Hackney,. Could he have been born in England and emigrated to NZ?
kiterunner
09-06-11, 07:10
Ooooh, I've found a 7 year old James Kirk in Hackney in 1911 with the following people:
Anna Maria Payne Walling age 61
Alfred Walling 23
Winifred Walling 3
Elenor Brady 29
Lily Hollingshead 18
Beatrice Hollingshead 10.
I'll try to find the image on ancestry to get a full transcription, but that has to be him.
Margaret in Burton
09-06-11, 07:21
Ooooh, I've found a 7 year old James Kirk in Hackney in 1911 with the following people:
Anna Maria Payne Walling age 61
Alfred Walling 23
Winifred Walling 3
Elenor Brady 29
Lily Hollingshead 18
Beatrice Hollingshead 10.
I'll try to find the image on ancestry to get a full transcription, but that has to be him.
He's a nurse child
RG14PN1161 RG78PN38 RD11 SD5 ED22 SN173
kiterunner
09-06-11, 07:30
Thanks for that, Marg. I'd just realised that some of those people I listed might not actually be in the household!
So this is the family:
39 Chatham Place, Morning Lane, Hackney
Anna Maria Payne Head Widow 61 Torquay Devon
Alfred Walling Son 23 Single Railway Porter Torquay Devon
James Kirk Nurse Child 7 London
Winifred Walling Neice 3 London
Elenor Brady Visitor 28 Single Servant Domestic Ireland Resident.
London - St John at Hackney - South East Hackney - ED 22 - image 346.
It looks as though the relationship to head said something else and was then rubbed out and replaced with "Nurse Child". Not sure what, though.
Margaret in Burton
09-06-11, 07:47
Thanks for that, Marg. I'd just realised that some of those people I listed might not actually be in the household!
So this is the family:
39 Chatham Place, Morning Lane, Hackney
Anna Maria Payne Head Widow 61 Torquay Devon
Alfred Walling Son 23 Single Railway Porter Torquay Devon
James Kirk Nurse Child 7 London
Winifred Walling Neice 3 London
Elenor Brady Visitor 28 Single Servant Domestic Ireland Resident.
London - St John at Hackney - South East Hackney - ED 22 - image 346.
It looks as though the relationship to head said something else and was then rubbed out and replaced with "Nurse Child". Not sure what, though.
Yes it does look a bit smudgy
kiterunner
09-06-11, 07:50
Winifred Walling died Dec 1989 Hackney, dob 3 Jul 1907. Birth registered Jul-Sep 1907 Hackney. So I think she is probably "Miss M Walling, sister" and the initial was wrong. But as for whether James Kirk was actually related to the Wallings, I haven't managed to work that out yet.
This may be irrelevant as I've not cross checked anything, but assuming from the 1911 census he didn't have to have been born in Hackney, there's a James Kirk reg in Paddington in Q3 1903 and according to the LMA records he was b 23rd Sept in Paddington workhouse to Hannah Kirk.
Hmmmm.....forget that as there's a single Hannah Kirk in Paddington workhouse in 1901 with twin children Rosina and Victor aged 1. In 1911 there's Henry (reg was Henry Victor Kirk in 1900) 11, Rosina 11 and James 7 all unknown for place of birth living as inmates at an address in Fulham.
kiterunner
09-06-11, 09:39
His dob on his death reg is 25 Feb 1904, if it's the right death, which matches the quarter of that Hackney birth registration. I found a tree that said that Anna Maria Payne Walling's maiden name was Weymouth and I keep meaning to see if I can find a Weymouth / Kirk connection but haven't got round to it yet!
kiterunner
09-06-11, 09:41
Okay, there is a possible marriage Jul-Sep 1874 Newton Abbot district between William Walling and Annie Maria P Weymouth, so the name Weymouth will be worth looking into.
His dob on his death reg is 25 Feb 1904, if it's the right death, which matches the quarter of that Hackney birth registration. I found a tree that said that Anna Maria Payne Walling's maiden name was Weymouth and I keep meaning to see if I can find a Weymouth / Kirk connection but haven't got round to it yet!
Ah, OK. Maybe I should have read the whole thread! lol
Sue at the seaside
09-06-11, 10:50
I have to say all this is quite mind blowing. All Dad mentioned yesterday was that Phyllis married James Kirk in Marlborough. And he was a Kiwi. When I asked why Marlborough? it was because she was there in the Land Army, (she later went on to be a gardener for Lord and Lady Braintree) so finding that that her husband (ex by then) was also a gardener is interesting.
The birth in Hackney is also interesting, Chatham Place (1911) is just round the corner from Darnley Road.
Dad definitely said that he came here (to England) with the ANZAC force, so was he born here and went to NZ came back, fought somewhere, came back to UK then went back to NZ?
Being born in UK would fit with a newspaper cutting I have some where, can't find it at the mo, it's a picture of a man, a politician I think, with a note written by Phyllis (as I recall) "Husband's brother". I'll have another hunt for that later!
kiterunner
09-06-11, 11:45
Dad definitely said that he came here (to England) with the ANZAC force, so was he born here and went to NZ came back, fought somewhere, came back to UK then went back to NZ?
Yes, looks like it.
Being born in UK would fit with a newspaper cutting I have some where, can't find it at the mo, it's a picture of a man, a politician I think, with a note written by Phyllis (as I recall) "Husband's brother". I'll have another hunt for that later!
Sounds interesting!
kiterunner
09-06-11, 11:49
Oh, there's a Cyril Wilmot Walling birth registration on the same page as Winifred's. He died in the same quarter. But the name might help in working out who Winifred's parents were.
There's a Master J Kirk travelling to New Zealand in May 1916 when James would have been 12 years of age:
Mast J KIRK
Departure date:30 May 1916
Port of departure:Plymouth
Destination port:New Zealand
Destination country:New Zealand
Ship:ROTORUA
The above person is recorded as a schoolboy, but is age 11 rather than 12. He is listed on another passenger list in march the same year, but his details are crossed through on that one.
Sue at the seaside
09-06-11, 15:45
What an amazing collection of info, Thank you so much.
I thought I'd tell Dad what you've all come up with, picture it.....
"Dad, it seems that James Kirk was born in London and went to NZ later"
"Oh yes, that's right, I knew that, I bet he lived at 29 Darnley Road"
"His sister is listed as Miss Walling"
"Oh Winnie, yes I remember her, she lived in the basement, she fancied him as well as Auntie Phyl, so I'm not sure there was a blood relationship"
It's good to have findings corroborated!
So, I wonder what the relationship between them all was. Dad knows there is a link of some kind between the Wallings and Kirks.
It's good to make Dad think, he is 93 and manages most things, with a bit of prompting!!!!
It will take me an age to get all this down and sorted through.
The city council inform me that they are auditing the cemateries data base and hop to have it back on line soon.
There is another button I can push to contact someone so I will see if I can get a look up of the records for free.
Sue at the seaside
10-06-11, 21:05
OOh thanks for this Chris, although this was originally my curiosity, Dad is really interested now. One thing he can't get over is the help that total strangers are prepared to give.
Thanks so much
message sent.
If there is a headstone I could find it and photograph it, but there quite possibly is not one with no family, but then again he may have been buried by the RSA and they provide one for returned soldiers, it may not be very helpful though.
We will see what the council come up with.
It is strange really, I have looked up his last address on a map and it was a hop skip and jump from where I live. His local RSA would be the one that an old family friend would have frequented and where my father also went when he was in this area. Spooky, they probably knew each other. The only person that I could ask now has dementia and probably would not remember.
Actually, the RSA possibly have records, if the council do not come up with much then I will contact them.
kiterunner
11-06-11, 10:22
There's a file at the NZ Archives, Chris - see post #10.
The RSA don't hold military records but they do have and may well keep membership records. My Dad had been dead for 15 years but they still keep a bit of an eye on Mum and she gets invited to functions for widows for instance.
If they would release any records to non relatives is another story though I guess.
I have a date of death, 27 June 1987 at age 83 and it was an RSA burial, so looks like it is the correct one. He is buried in the Taradale cemetery.
tenterfieldjulie
13-06-11, 09:11
Well done Chris.
maggie_4_7
13-06-11, 12:59
Well done.
Sue at the seaside
13-06-11, 15:56
Chris, Thanks so much for this. I'll be back on the case soon!
x
It is strange really, I have looked up his last address on a map and it was a hop skip and jump from where I live. His local RSA would be the one that an old family friend would have frequented and where my father also went when he was in this area. Spooky, they probably knew each other. The only person that I could ask now has dementia and probably would not remember.
Just a thought. You never know with dementia what they do and don't remember. Sometimes things far back in time are still there. It might be too far out of your way, Chris, but I wondered if it was worth a try.
In any case, kudos to all of you for this piece of work. I never cease to be amazed at what you guys can do.
Sue at the seaside
26-07-11, 20:48
I've just got round to getting back to this and giving the time to absorb all the info you have amazingly gathered for me.
I'm not at all sure that there was a relationship between the Wallings and James, but......
Dad's version of events was that Winnie and James were brought up together and it had always been assumed that when he came back to England they would marry, (so that fact she was listed as sister is dead dodgy!) He returned and met Auntie Phyl, had a whirlwind romance and married her instead. That sort of scenario would fit with Winnie Wallings never having married.
Just getting round to writing all this up. Thanks again for everything xxxx
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