workhouse births ? Penistone,Yorkshire

[garstonite]

Margery Kay babtised 1/10/1826 born in Penistone Workhouse,Yorks
mother Harriet Kay...father named as Samuel Hadfield a Mill owner on Margery Kay marriage certificate to James Williamson in 1851

Harriet Kay b 1810 in Penistone Workhouse - mother Ann Kay ..born 17th April 1810 - christened 5th Aug as Harriott

so todays quest is to try and find anything out about Ann Kay ?...was this her married name or single mother ??

I have NO experience on Workhouse births ...has anyone had to research workhouse births please ?...if so , could you advise me of my next step....cheers
allan:)

[Olde Crone]

Allan

Workhouse births are just like any other birth, lol! If only the mother's name is given in the baptism record then it's fairly sure she was a single mother.

Now the wonderful thing about workhouse births to single mothrs back then is that the workhouse master would take out a bastardy order against the father. This was done very quickly after the birth, usually the day after baptism but certainly within the first month.

You used to be able to find these bastardy orders online on the old A2A site but I'm not sure where/if they are listed now, although I expect they are in the Lancashire archives - if they survive, that is.

The workhouse was often the only place a woman could get medical help, so Ann MAY have been married but it's unlikely at that date, the workhouses were very primitive and didn't really offer much help in the case of a difficult birth.

OC

[garstonite]

Thanks OC...so in my situation,would you agree that I look for a birth of Ann Kay around 1790 in Penistone ?( as Harriet was born April 1810 )
OK....it was 2 years ago plus that I last looked at these Kay births....there`s postings from Kiterunner and Merry ....Margery had a son Charles Kay b 1844 in the workhouse...but re reading this thread it would appear we couldn`t find the births of Margery and Harriet Kay WERE in the Workhouse.....sad to say , I remember someone else researching Margery and Harriet and Ann giving me the info...so ...if Harriet WASN`T born in the Workhouse...I need to review my research
http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/64900-workhouse-births-pre-1837-query-please?highlight=harriet+kay+1810

allan

ADDED
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyYorkshire_(M-P).htm#P

[Merry]

Did you know that despite the marriage you mentioned in 1843, there is still a single Margery Kay b Peniston abt 1825 on the 1851 census?

UPDATE - she had a child in 1844? Wilkinson or Kaye?

[Olde Crone]

OK, I've read the previous thread and I would say that you need to look at the Penistone baptism records. This might not actually SAY they were baptised in the workhouse but you casn nearly always tell if they were because you get a long list of baptisms to single mothers on one page. Depending on the size of the workhouse, the Vicar (more likely the Curate) visited once a week to baptise and of course the records went into the parish register.

OC

[Merry]

Margery Kay marriage certificate to James Williamson in 1843



No, 1851, Allan!

[garstonite]

No, 1851, Allan!

just checked my tree and have edited to 1851...sorry Merry...I knew Charles was born 1844 and just posted 1843 for the marriage....then I realised Charles was born Kay ...before Margery`s marriage....
so that looks like 3 ladies
Ann
Harriet
Margery
who all had illegitimate children ....these are my DIRECT ancestors....
where is Margery in 1851 census please Merry ?

OC...the Genealogy freepages website I pasted has many births with father and mother on, so would this mean that Harriet and Margery would probably NOT have been born in the Workhouse ?
thank you both for helping
allan

[Merry]

Not sure if you have this?

WALTER JOHNSON
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: HARRIOT KAY Family
Marriage: 09 NOV 1829 Glossop, Derby, England


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages: Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.


And 1851, Yorke Row, Glossop Derbyshire:


Walter Johnson head m 50 gen labourer b ?? Northants somewhere???
Harriot Johnson wife m 40 b Yorks Penistone
Mary Johnson dau 18
Martha Johnson dau 16
Walter Johnson son 13
John Johnson son 10
James Johnson son 5
Ben Johnson son 2

Last two children b Glossop, rest Penistone

[Merry]

where is Margery in 1851 census please Merry ?



She and her son Charles are in Glossop Union Workhouse.

[Olde Crone]

Sorry Allan but you can't assume anything really - they might just have been the only child born in the workhouse that week.

However, you can certainly assume they were unmarried. Whether they were born in the workhouse or not is irrelevant really as no records survive for Penistone (according to the other thread) and you will need to look for bastardy records, which will be in the CRO if they have survived - and Yorkshire not Lancashire as I put upthread by mistake!

OC

[garstonite]

Not sure if you have this?

WALTER JOHNSON
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: HARRIOT KAY Family
Marriage: 09 NOV 1829 Glossop, Derby, England


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages: Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.


And 1851, Yorke Row, Glossop Derbyshire:


Walter Johnson head m 50 gen labourer b ?? Northants somewhere???
Harriot Johnson wife m 40 b Yorks Penistone
Mary Johnson dau 18
Martha Johnson dau 16
Walter Johnson son 13
John Johnson son 10
James Johnson son 5
Ben Johnson son 2

Last two children b Glossop, rest Penistone

No Merry...I have never found a marriage for Harriot/Harriet....because I was looking in Penistone....is this my Harriot ?....oohh...I am glad I posted for them this morning....if this was your tree would you add this family ??...I have read it 3 times now and it has to be my Harriot doesn`t it...no other Harriot Kay b Penistone 1810.....if this is my Harriot - thank you very very much...some more family to add ....and research ......what do you think ??....add them ??
allan:):):)
allan

[Merry]

I would be much more inclined to add the Johnsons to my tree than make the assumption that Ann Kay might have been born about 1790 in Penistone!

Harriot Johnson is showing up in Glossop through to 1881 but Walter is only on the 1851. They are together in Penistone in 1841, but Ancestry has them transcribed as Jenson.

Had you realised the Penistone marriages are not on the IGI for the period 1810 -1813 so if Ann Kay was married after she gave birth to Harriet she also might be hiding on the census with a birthplace and age to help you.

[Merry]

Glossop and Penistone are only 14 miles apart and Walter was a railway labourer in 1841, so he might have been fairly well travelled!

[garstonite]

I would be much more inclined to add the Johnsons to my tree than make the assumption that Ann Kay might have been born about 1790 in Penistone!

Harriot Johnson is showing up in Glossop through to 1881 but Walter is only on the 1851. They are together in Penistone in 1841, but Ancestry has them transcribed as Jenson.

Had you realised the Penistone marriages are not on the IGI for the period 1810 -1813 so if Ann Kay was married after she gave birth to Harriet she also might be hiding on the census with a birthplace and age to help you.

No Merry...I have been on Record Pilot and didn`t realise Penistone wasn`t transcribed for that period....would Advanced search on IGI be worth a look at ?...yes obviously, stupid question...thanks Merry...I looked for Harriot in 1881 census as Harriot Johnson b 1810 but couldn`t find her...I will have another look giving +/- 5 years ...cheers Merry....allan

[Merry]

9 Bank St Glossop

Harriott JOHNSON Head W Female 70 Thurlstone, York, England Housekeeper At Home
Walter JOHNSON Son U Male 44 Thurlstone, York, England General Labourer

[garstonite]

Thanks Merry...why Thurlstone ?...is that the largest town by Penistone I presume ?
allan

[garstonite]

Well...OC - MERRY...thankyou both very much...a successful day thanks to you...
SEVEN new family members.....great day.....going to do the roast dinner now...thanx again ...you are stars....
allan:) ;);)

[Merry]

I haven't time to type this properly, but there's an IGI marriage in 1814 of Ann Kay to George Farrah at High Hoyland which is v close to Penistone. Found them with son Isaac in 1841/51. In 1851 Ann is b Clayton which I think is West Clayton which is 5 miles from Penistone and I think she was 67 years.

Of course I can't find baptisms for West Clayton anywhere to see if there was an Ann Kay b there at the right time.

Probably all a red herring. You need to find Penistone marriages.

[Uncle John]

I haven't time to type this properly, but there's an IGI marriage in 1814 of Ann Kay to George Farrah at High Hoyland which is v close to Penistone. Found them with son Isaac in 1841/51. In 1851 Ann is b Clayton which I think is West Clayton which is 5 miles from Penistone and I think she was 67 years.

Of course I can't find baptisms for West Clayton anywhere to see if there was an Ann Kay b there at the right time.

Probably all a red herring. You need to find Penistone marriages.

West Clayton currently goes under the name of Clayton West, for some reason. Don't known when/if the change took place.