GRO index question

[Merry]

Research for a friend so nothing to add to BK6

I just wondered if anyone had come across anything like this before?

Sorry, but I'm changing the name to a fictitious one, because I don't really want the person I queried this with to find me discussing it publicly, even though the individual concerned is dec'd.

Birth reg in Q4 1914 - GRO entry has her name as Elizabeth A Bloggs

1919 her father's army pension record details her as Elizabeth Alice Bloggs b 21st Dec 1914

GRO entry for her marriage to Mr Smith in the 1930s has her as Elizabeth A Bloggs.

GRO entry for her death in 1986 has her as Floriana Elizabeth A Smith with the correct dob recorded.

When I was first told about this lady she was described as Bessie, but that her real name was actually Floriana. My contact said as a child she had never believed the Floriana bit until she saw her relative's birth cert. I eventually pointed out that the name Floriana only appears in the death index, and not in the other three places, so she sent me a scan of the birth cert.

The birth cert is one issued by the GRO in 1980, so it has the image from the GRO film to show the actual birth record. At first glance the cert appears quite normal and shows all three first names (so not the same as the GRO birth index entry). Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but the second and third name are written in the centre of the forenames box and the new first name is right at the top, but the handwriting looks extremely similar except that it runs absolutely level whilst all the other writing slopes very slightly downhill. The ink thickness and density seem identical to the rest.

I'm trying to work out if the birth cert has been tampered with. (for nosiness reasons only!!)

Your comments/questions would be much appreciated.

[kiterunner]

I believe her father would have had to produce her birth certificate for the army to put her on his records, so if the birth cert said Floriana on it, it should be on the army records. I don't suppose your contact wants to fork out for a new copy of the birth cert? (Perhaps from the local register office)

[Merry]

I don't think she cares for me questioning the situation! That is a very good point though about the army needing to see the original cert. Thanks.

[Olde Crone]

Oh well, now here's a funny thing. I was about to tell you how my grandmother poshed up her name from Ethel to Eithlina for her wedding. I have the original marriage cert. (I think).

Except...I've just looked on Freebmd and she's plain Ethel on there......

OC

[anne fraser]

I have found free bmd only lists a maximum three christian names so if they have several the others are missed out but it is usually the last one not the first.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Is there a baptism record for this lady?
I have a vague recollection of being told (by a vicar) that if an additional name is added at baptism, then that becomes the "official" name, regardless of what is on the birth certficate.
No idea of the validity of the Rev's statement.

Jay

[Margaret in Burton]

Is she RC? They have a confirmation name. OH's grandmothers was Veronica but it was never used on certs.

[kiterunner]

That wouldn't explain how it appeared on the copy birth certificate from 1980, though?

[Margaret in Burton]

That wouldn't explain how it appeared on the copy birth certificate from 1980, though?

Perhaps it has been tampered with.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Is there a baptism record for this lady?
I have a vague recollection of being told (by a vicar) that if an additional name is added at baptism, then that becomes the "official" name, regardless of what is on the birth certficate.
No idea of the validity of the Rev's statement.

Jay


Have just looked this up -

"Column 10 - Baptismal name entered after registration.
In most cases this is blank but occasionally it contains a name or names. Sometimes it is an additional name, sometimes a reversal of the order of the Christian names, sometimes just a spelling change, sometimes a totally different name."

So, if they had decided to add a name post registration, the correct procedure wasn't followed.
Does sound like a DIY job.

Jay

[Merry]

Does sound like a DIY job

lol!!

Apparently she was very proud of her name and that is why she showed off her birth cert - In which case it's funny she didn't remember to use the name when she got married!! :rolleyes: If I was made of money I would get a copy as Kite suggested, but I'm not. I have sowed the seed of doubt to my contact though.........

I don't suppose anyone knows if Hammersmith and Fulham district are one of these who don't do family history queries? (I guess they probably don't :()

[kiterunner]

They have some info on their site:
http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/Community_and_Living/Birth_marriage_and_death/Copy_certificates/33923_Copy_certificates.asp

I like this bit: "This service is only available for historic registrations"

So if Floriana wasn't famous or important enough to be classed as "historic", would they reject your application?

[Merry]

lol! I don't think she was :D

I don't think stating 'I only want the cert if the forenames don't include the name Floriana' will work!

[Merry]

I have found free bmd only lists a maximum three christian names so if they have several the others are missed out but it is usually the last one not the first.

Erm, FreeBMD transcribe whatever is on the GRO index. Here is one entry from FreeBMD:

Births Mar 1883 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PEPPER Ann Bertha C D E F G H I J K L M N O Q R S T U V W X Y Z W.Derby 8b 649

as mentioned on a General thread today by Gert in Oz:

http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=134976&postcount=10

[Merry]

Does anyone know.....If I wanted to order a cert from Lancs BMD but the entry isn't on their index yet, can I still do this by letter?

[Olde Crone]

Yes, but you'd have to know which district. You can order by email, I've done this in the past, under the guise of an enquiry, lol, such as

"Are you able to supply the marriage cert for Joe Bloggs and Fanny Smith?"

OC

[Merry]

I know the district (Manchester) and the Yr and Q, but I guess I should email them to ask where the death register would be held? (Registers now held at Manchester, Oldham, Bury and Bolton) I would presume Manchester, but I guess it depends on space?

[marquette]

I have some people in my tree who added extra names or even changed their first names to something completely different. I don't know if its the same in the UK, but its not illegal to change your name without a deed poll - as long as it is not to commit fraud, you can call yourself anything you like. Admittedly, today, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to get official documents without your birth certificate showing exactly the same name, but in the past, who knew or cared ?

Currently we are investigating Henry Sanderson, who somewhere about the time of his marriage added "Thellusson" as his middle name and then gave it to his first two children. The second child changed it to "Phillip" and then adopted a completely different surname, we think, but have on circumstancal proof at this stage.


Di

[Merry]

lol Di!

Of course you are right, but in this case the point is that the lady produced her birth cert to 'prove' her first name was given at birth, as no one believed her. On the face of it, perhaps they still shouldn't have believed her!

[Uncle John]

Have just looked this up -

"Column 10 - Baptismal name entered after registration.
In most cases this is blank but occasionally it contains a name or names. Sometimes it is an additional name, sometimes a reversal of the order of the Christian names, sometimes just a spelling change, sometimes a totally different name."

So, if they had decided to add a name post registration, the correct procedure wasn't followed.
Does sound like a DIY job.

I have one where the birth was registered by the house owner. There was then a bust-up of some sort and Col. 10 records a completely different set of names. When I queried with the local RO they said Col. 10 has to be used within 12 months.

[Olde Crone]

Ah, UJ's comment reminds me that col 10 was put there expressly for those people who felt that a name wasn't a name until the child had been baptised.

So you could register your chgild as George Frederick, to fulfil your civic obligations, but when the child was baptised you decided Arthur was a better name, and as a CHRISTIAN name, it has more legal clout than George Frederick. The established church believe that you cannot legally change your christian name, i.e. the name you were baptised with.

Perhaps Floriana was BAPTISED as Floriana?

OC

[Merry]

Now there's a thought OC. Doesn't mean she didnt forge her birth cert lol but would give a bit more substance to her claim!! If she loved her name so much though, I wonder why she didn't use it when she married?!!

[Olde Crone]

It would be interesting to see her original cert, as written out by the local registrar.

The GRO copy might have had Floriana added afterwards, but by the registrar (you said the writing was very similar).

I don't know why she didn't call herself Florrie on marriage!

OC

[Merry]

The GRO copy might have had Floriana added afterwards, but by the registrar (you said the writing was very similar).


The writing was very similar, but in a way that made it seem more like an alteration by the lady herself.

The GRO copy of the cert would have been written by the local registrar at the end of Dec 1914 and sent to the GRO. At some point the GRO filmed all the records sent to them, but I guess that didn't happen until the appropriate technology came along, so several decades later. If sometime close to 1914 a amendment to the certificate was made (whether it was within the rules or not - we know how many times rules are not adheared to!) then the individual (parent?) making the amendment would have probably visited the local registrar and if the alteraion had ever made it to the GRO (unlikely esp if this alteration was too late to be made etc etc) then the writing would be different to the original as it would have been a GRO clerk who would have changed the record.

I don't know why I'm making a fuss really - Perhaps it's just that I'm interested to try and work out if it might have been possible to change the details of a cert outside of the regulations!

[Olde Crone]

Oooh, no, fuss on, I can't bear these unexplained irregularities!

I have seen one blatantly altered birth cert, but the "owner" of the cert had never noticed that his "father's" name was in different ink and different handwriting, lol, till I pointed it out. He was not pleased with me.

OC

[samesizedfeet]

My great great grandmother was born and baptised Selina Anne Gloster in 1864.

She appears on 1871 and 1881 census as Selina Gloster.

In October 1881 she was baptised again as Florence Selina Gloster.

She marries in 1885 as Florence Selaine Gloster (I think this is just a mispelling though)

She has 8 children and mostly appears as Florence except one where she's Selina.

She then known as Florence until she dies in 1936.


Searching for her the correct way i.e. going backwards, and before the records wre online was a massive pain in the wotsits as I was looking for the birth of a Florence and if it wasn't for the unusual surname and her fathers occupation and me taking a chance on Selina I'd still be looking now.

Still can't find her parents marriage so goodness only knows what names they were using

[Margaret in Burton]

Where was she born Zoe?

There are a couple of Selina Gloster's on the BMD indexes

[kiterunner]

I think Zoe was saying she'd already found the birth, Marg.

[Margaret in Burton]

I think Zoe was saying she'd already found the birth, Marg.

Yes, probably. it's me not reading the thread properly.:o:o:o