View Full Version : Amy Mary Haig, England & Wales, National Probate Calendar
This doesn't make sense to me - that probate was granted to one person (my great-uncle) in one month, and then administration in the following month to another (her husband), with different amounts of money, too - I am sure it will make sense to someone:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1904&iid=31874_221804-00017&fn=Amy+Mary&ln=Haig&st=r&ssrc=&pid=2538623
Margaret in Burton
19-05-11, 14:59
This is it for those who don't have Ancestry.
There seems to be a dispute about her name as well
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/Capture.jpg
Margaret in Burton
19-05-11, 15:00
Perhaps she was estranged from her husband and your great uncle tried to claim the estate but then the husband disputed that, as he was legally her next of kin?
kiterunner
19-05-11, 15:01
She married in Scotland, to a Scotsman, and the Scottish tradition was for women to be listed under both surnames, so that explains the surname thing.
Not sure what the explanation is for the two entries.
Thank you. Sorry, I should have put that.
I have the marriage record for her and John Brown Haig, 1890 in Scotland. They are together in 1901 with a son, in Margate. However, he is with another "wife" Katie in 1911, having been married for ten years, so he wrote!
Margaret in Burton
19-05-11, 15:08
Thank you. Sorry, I should have put that.
I have the marriage record for her and John Brown Haig, 1890 in Scotland. They are together in 1901 with a son, in Margate. However, he is with another "wife" Katie in 1911, having been married for ten years, so he wrote!
So they were estranged then as she didn't die until 1939
A lot of difference in the money between the two dates too.
Indeed.
With the death registrations being indexed now in find my past, I have just found the registration for his "wife" Katie in 1953; John died in 1943.
I wonder if she made a will before she married? That might explain a subsequent admon, as marriage invalidates previous wills. Not the difference in the value, though!
It is all most intriguing. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if neither my Mum nor my aunt knew anything about great-aunt Amy having been married as she had been apart from her husband for a long time, since before they were born in fact.
I think that I shall have to send for the will. It will take a few weeks of course. Shall I update you once it has arrived?
Margaret in Burton
19-05-11, 16:40
It is all most intriguing. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if neither my Mum nor my aunt knew anything about great-aunt Amy having been married as she had been apart from her husband for a long time, since before they were born in fact.
I think that I shall have to send for the will. It will take a few weeks of course. Shall I update you once it has arrived?
Please do.
I found sending to Birmingham was quicker than York. Don't know where you live but try a local office.
Uncle John
20-05-11, 21:58
She married in Scotland, to a Scotsman, and the Scottish tradition was for women to be listed under both surnames, so that explains the surname thing.
Not sure what the explanation is for the two entries.
I wonder if she made a will before she married? That might explain a subsequent admon, as marriage invalidates previous wills. Not the difference in the value, though!
One thing is certain, she didn't make her will in Scotland. Otherwise it would have to be proved in Scotland and the NPC would refer to it being "sealed".
The will has arrived :)
It was made in 1923. "THIS IS THE LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT of me AMY HAIG (Married Woman) commonly known as Amy Newton Spinster ...".
Her brother Herbert Newton was appointed executor and she bequeathed to him £100 for performing the duties of an executor. The rest of her estate was bequeathed to Herbert's wife Maria or, if she was deceased at the time of Amy's death, then to any issue of theirs living at the time of Amy's death. It was signed AMY NEWTON otherwise HAIG.
I now know the address of my great-uncle Herbert in 1923 and in 1939, from when Amy's will was made and when it was proved.:)
There was nothing about the amount given to her husband. If you were me, would you write to the probate office asking them to check for any other paperwork?
It seems that somehow he learned of her death and disputed her wish to leave everything to her brother and sister-in-law, and the law agreed that, as he was her husband, he was entitled to some of it.
Edited: I have just noticed something - on the page where it states that the will was proved and administration granted to Herbert Newton, there is also:
"And it is hereby certified that an Affidavit for Inland Revenue has been delivered wherein it is shown that the gross value of the said Estate in Great Britain (exclusive of what the said deceased may have been possessed of or entitled to as a Trustee and not beneficially) amounts to £641.11.3 and that the net value of the personal estate amounts to £321.03. And it is further certified that it appears by a Receipt signed by an Inland Revenue Officer on the said Affidavit that £12.9.3 an account of Estate Duty and interest on such duty has been paid."
So, looking at the entries in the probate calendar, it seems that her husband had everything. Hmm!
Olde Crone
04-06-11, 10:00
Maybe (for instance) the house was owned by the husband, but the brother thought it belonged to his sister? It would certainly look as if the husband claimed some or all of the estate was his - that would account for the fairly large difference between the two sums.
OC
Thank you, OC. That could be possible but somehow I have my doubts, though I shall never know the ins and outs of this.
Her husband was with a different "wife" in 1911, to whom he claimed in the census that he had been married for ten years :( and that "wife" died just a couple of years after him (from free BMD death registrations).
kiterunner
04-06-11, 15:19
Joy, did you ask for the will and the letters of administration, or just the will?
Joy, did you ask for the will and the letters of administration, or just the will?
This is what I put in my letter:
"Please would you send a copy of the grant and the Will, and any other relevant papers, for Amy Mary Haig to me.
These are the details of two entries about her in the probate calendar:-
HAIG or NEWTON Amy of 1 Linden-Cottages Penn-road Hazelmere High Wycombe Buckinghamshire (wife of John Brown Haig) died 14 August 1939 Probate Oxford 4 November to Herbert Newton retired railway guard. Effects £641 11s 3d.
HAIG Amy Mary of 1 Linden-cottages Hazelmere High Wycombe Buckinghamshire (wife of John Brown Haig) died 14 August 1939 Administration London 11 December to the said John Brown Haig works foreman. Effects £325.
My cheque for £6 payable to HMCTS is enclosed."
So do you think I should write again saying I did ask for any other relevant papers but no letters of administration were sent to me - something like that?
What won't survive (but what you'd really like!) is an inventory. I can't remember what the difference between gross & net estates are. Patently it cannot be the amount of estate duty payable. Probably some assets were in joint names. Have to say that a house worth £600 in the 1920s was probably worth having!
Margaret in Burton
06-06-11, 12:33
What won't survive (but what you'd really like!) is an inventory. I can't remember what the difference between gross & net estates are. Patently it cannot be the amount of estate duty payable. Probably some assets were in joint names. Have to say that a house worth £600 in the 1920s was probably worth having!
Definitely
My grandad paid £500 in 1936 for a 3 bed semi in a very nice rural area. It was sold for £14,000 in 1984, in need of huge modernisation etc. Goodness knows what it's worth now, at least £200,000 if not more.
Yes, I should like an inventory. And I should like my great-uncle Herbert to tell me what happened next after the will had been proved :) Did he make contact with the husband? Had he known previously that Amy had been married a long time before? So much I WANT to know :)
Pity that title deeds are no longer relevant.
I wonder if rates survive for the area. Details of rateable value of her address would be illuminating.
I telephoned the probate office, and more papers will be sent to me :)
And the document has arrived re
HAIG Amy Mary of 1 Linden-cottages Hazelmere High Wycombe Buckinghamshire (wife of John Brown Haig) died 14 August 1939 Administration London 11 December to the said John Brown Haig works foreman. Effects £325.
- letters of administration to "the lawful husband of the said intestate".
There is a further puzzle now :)
Written lengthwise along the right hand side of the document is the following:
Revoked pursuant to Registrars Order dated 24 March 1959.
Uncle John
20-06-11, 22:05
I love mysteries - especially other people's!!
dO YOU HAVE THE ORIGINAL WILL, or a registered copy?
Is it properly witnessed? Was it written after the marriage?
Clearly there were grounds for revoking the will. Is there any way you can hold of the Registrars Order?
Oh so do I, Uncle John :-)
Phoenix, it is a typed copy, the witnesses being two people at Bliss & Sons, solicitors, High Wycombe, and its was made in 1923. Amy had married John Brown Haig 28 October 1890 at Coldstream, Berwickshire, Scotland. They had a son, Andrew Newton Haig, birth registered September qr 1893 Croydon district, and they were all together in 1901; John Brown Haig was with a different "wife" in 1911. According to Andrew's army papers, he was brought up from childhood by an aunt, Agnes Stevenson Haig, in Scotland; he, sadly, was killed in world war one. Agnes S Haig was one of the witnesses at Amy and John's wedding in 1890.
It is a puzzle that the date that it was revoked was in 1959, 20 years after the death of great-aunt Amy, and 16 years after the death of her husband, also 6 years after the death of her brother Herbert Newton and his wife (executor and beneficiaries of Amy's will).
Do you know how one can get hold of the Registrars Order?
kiterunner
21-06-11, 09:41
You're sure it says 59 and not 39? And that it isn't saying that the original grant of probate was revoked?
Definitely 1959 written vertically on the right hand side of the document.
Amy had died 14 August 1939.
I have queried it with the probate office and shall let you know the next reply from the helpful staff there.
Uncle John
21-06-11, 12:34
I'm all agog!
Okay then - it seems that in 1959 someone discovered that there were two grants produced, one proving a will and the other not proving a will.
A grant issued with a will supersedes a grant that has no will; the grant issued without a will is invalid and therefore revoked, and the grant issued with a will is the valid grant.
So, from this, it would seem to me that Amy's will, for which probate was granted in November 1939 to her brother Herbert Newton, was carried out according to her wishes.
I could contact the solicitors to ask them but somehow doubt that the paperwork would have been stored all that time :)
Then I bet it's all to do with the house.
While property is in the family, nobody bothers to sort it all out legally. But if you sell to Joe public, you need evidence of title. Somebody got a copy of the will to do so.... and then the fun began!
An update:
Her brother Herbert Newton, my great-uncle, was at her address when he died :)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1904&iid=32858_633870_1436-00034&fn=Herbert&ln=Newton&st=r&ssrc=&pid=19274093
So the property was kept in the family, but Herbert surely can't have owned it? I wonder who was living there in 1954 - 9?
Perhaps the relevent reference library could check the electoral register? Or could the address be listed in the phone book?
I can't find the will at present, it is somewhere in an ever increasing pile of papers. But in a letter to cousins about it, I said to them "Amy died in 1939 and her will left her effects to great-uncle Herbert." When I can find the will again, I shall update.
Did Uncle Herbert have children? Have you checked the probate calendar for the husband and his other wife?
I shall answer above as soon as possible; we have been away.
I love the twists and turns on this and am awaiting with bated breath for the next instalment.
It's better than any soap:-)
:)
Great-uncle Herbert and great-auntie Maria did have children, yes:
(1) Elaine Bertha Frances Adelaide Newton was born in Wood Green, Middlesex in 1898. She married Horace Victor Herbert Moon in 1921. It was Elaine to whom probate was granted for great-uncle Herbert's will in 1953.
(2) Winifred Doris Newton was born in Wood Green, Middlesex in 1901. Win died, unmarried, in 1980.
(3) Leslie Gordon Newton was born in Wood Green, Middlesex in 1903.
Great-auntie Amy's husband John Brown Haig died in 1943, but I couldn't see a probate record for him. John's "wife" Kate died in 1953 but, again, I could not see a probate record for her.
John's "wife" Kate died in 1953 but, again, I could not see a probate record for her.
Are you sure the 1953 death is hers? There's another Kate Haig on the 1911 census similar age and similar area. I'm particularly wondering what happened to Kate, because I saw these entries:
In 1926 and 1931 John Brown Haig is with a Charlotte Haig on the electoral rolls in Willesden.
In 1912 there's this:
Marriages Dec 1912
Haig John B Rowlands Hampstead 1a 1544 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Page Emily Symes Hampstead 1a 1544
Rowlands Charlotte Haig Hampstead 1a 1544 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Symes George L Page Hampstead 1a 1544
There's a widow, Charlotte Rowlands aged 50, living in Hampstead as a servant in 1911.
She was previously married:
Marriages Jun 1902
Dimes Charlotte Paddington 1a 71 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Kell John William Paddington 1a 71
KNUDSEN Mary Elizabeth Paddington 1a 71
Rowlands Thomas Paddington 1a 71 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This is her birth reg:
Births Mar 1861
DIMES Charlotte Elizabeth Hartley W 2c 151 (Born Crondall, Hants according to the 1911 and 1901 census, which is in HW district)
and I think this is her death:
Name: Charlotte E Haig
Birth Date: abt 1861
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1934
Age at Death: 73
Registration district: Willesden
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 392
No will for her either.
EDIT: I've just realised this isn't the same thread I've read before about JB Haig, so apologies if you already have this or already know the info is unconnected! I don't have time to read back as I should have put the dinner on already!
I could be wrong, Merry :)
Hope you had a nice dinner. :)
PS According to public trees in ancestry, John Brown Haig was born 9 October 1867. John's address at the time of WWI was given in son Andrew's army records, I shall check that later: "Mr J B Haig of 40 Richard Rd (?), NW6".
Edited
You are right, Merry, it is a Charlotte with him in Oxford Road, South Kilburn in the 1920s / 1930s.
That would have been bigamy, marrying her in 1912. And as you said, where did Katie go?
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